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Children of Balls 5: Tale of the Bash


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#1 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 13 November 2005 - 12:58 PM

Right. Here we go. A virtual pat on the back for anyone who can figure out what deeper, more neutral issue with writing is also discussed here.


The Children of Balls
Part 5: Tale of the Bash



Less than a day's travel south from the Friendly Arms Inn, to the east from Candle Keeps, lay the town of Beres Gosts's.* It was here that our hero, sorry, I mean Abduh, now found himself. He had willingly followed Kenny and Janeth's backside on some quest or another, but he hadn't been able (nor trying) to figure out what they were supposed to be doing. The other two had spoken something about a "crisis of education", or, in Kenny's case, "mmph mph", which was reportedly sweeping across the Pointy Cliffs Coast, but apart from recoiling from it vaguely Abduh didn't even recognize the word "education". All he knew was that they had reached an inn, which offered good beds and drinks, and that, having walked all night, he wanted to drink.

What next took place at the inn was a series of events that is fortunate for our purposes in that not only will it be automatically funny for every reader, but also it will not offend anyone. Rather than being insensitive from anyone's point of view, it will by definition be agreed by everyone to be a very apt and quite appropriate jab at its target.


Abduh, Janeth and Kenny were sitting at a table in the Burning Wizard, a rather popular but eccentric tavern and inn whose main attraction was the smoldering corpse dangling in mid-air at the centre of the common room. No-one was quite sure what it was there for, but it was believed to be some kind of a cool, sophisticated reference to something or other. Abduh was trying to drink himself to a stupor but kept nodding off, while Janeth and Kenny were quietly discussing the current crisis.

It was then that the door opened, and Janeth saw [insert the name of a character you like] enter the room. "Look, Kenny, it's [character you like]," she said.

"Mmmphm mmph!" Kenny commented.

"Yes, I agree, [he/she] is very nice," Janeth said, because she was a sensible sort of character and would obviously be able to see that this was so.**

"Oh, hello Janeth! And Kenny," said [character you like] and walked to their table. "And... who is this?" [he/she] asked suspiciously, looking at Abduh who had fallen asleep with his face leaning against the top of his pint.

"That's Abduh. It's best to ignore him while we can," Janeth said.

[character you like] had barely had time to sit down when the door opened again, and [he/she] glanced in its direction. "Oh no," [he/she] groaned. "It's [insert the name of a character you don't like]. [he/she/it] is so annoying. [he/she/it] is always so [insert an attribute about the disliked character which you especially don't like]."

Naturally, being a likable character, [character you like] disliked all unlikable characters, regardless of their respective personalities otherwise.

"Why hello!" said [character you don't like]. "You all must be just aching for my company because I'm so wonderful!"

"We're not, actually," said [character you like].

"Well you should be, anyway. I'm doing you all a favour," [character you don't like] said and joined the group at the table, ignoring their grimaces (even Abduh's, which was quite scary even though he wasn't conscious).

There was an awkward pause. [character you don't like] looked around at everyone else at the table.

"Did I tell you about how much I'm better than everyone else and how everyone should do what I want and agree with me?" [he/she/it] asked.

"Not since we last met," said [character you like].

"Oh yes, I remember," said [character you don't like], and frowned. "You really behaved quite badly. You disagreed with me about things and seemed uninterested in what I had to say. Now, that was just wrong. I'm so great that of course everyone should be interested in what I have to say and agree with me."

It is a well known fact that all annoying characters think this way and therefore keep pestering sensible characters with their nonsense even after being told not to. Happily, this generally leads to a grisly end of some sort. Just wait.

[character you like] was, appropriately enough, at this point looking like [he/she] was going to be sick. [character you don't like] looked at [him/her] condescendingly and said, "Don't feel bad. It's just because you're so jealous for me being better than you. It's obvious; after all, I'm [enter the name of some arbitrary social group the disliked character belongs to]."

"I don't think you're better than [he/she] is in any way," Janeth said angrily.

[character you don't like] looked shocked. "Of course I am! I must be. After all, I'm [enter the disliked character's proclaimed alignment], so I must be right and you wrong!"

"Look, it's not that simple," [character you like] tried. "If you're supposed to be of some alignment but to me it seems you're behaving differently..."

"La la la la, I can't hear you!" said [character you don't like], holding [his/her/its] hands over [his/her/its] ears.

All annoying characters of course have a misguided, self-righteous and simplified view of the alignment system as applied to the real world. Because that's stupid. They're also unfathomably stupid, arrogant, self-centered, bigoted, unreliable, cowardly, unable to take a hint, ugly and sloppy, and vain and good-looking in a superficial, unpleasant kind of way that clever characters immediately see through. Of course, sometimes they try to fool you by pretending to behave as if they're not one of these things, but you can always tell they are all of them by how you don't like them. And even if one of them is not one of these things, you can always say they are, because when said about a disliked character it becomes humour.

Next, [character you don't like] said something that was refined satire of [his/her/its] individual flaws: "Duh."

"I really am so great," [character you don't like] went on when [his/her/its] brain reactivated, oblivious to the fact that everyone in the room who had caught so much as one word of what [he/she/it] had said by now wanted to kill [him/her/it]. "As the queen of Teethir was telling me just the other day..."

Lightning flashed outside, and there was a long rumble of thunder straight above, even though just a while ago it had been sunny. Shadows in the room seemed to lengthen. Everyone turned to look at [character you don't like] with mingled expressions of horror and disgust.

Even [character you don't like] perceived the ominous, downright murderous change in the atmosphere. [he/she/it] seemed to shrink under everyone's gaze.

"Okay, I made that up," [he/she/it] mumbled. "I've never met her."

Gradually, the shadow lifted, and the sun began to shine again. People turned back to their own tables, only giving the occasional contemptuous look at [character you don't like], who was once again oblivious to all such but still seemed a little shaken.

"Well, it seems you all can't handle my superiority!" [he/she/it] announced haughtily, and stood up. "I think I'll just go now!"

"Good," said Janeth.

"Don't let us keep you," said [character you like].

"Mmmmph," agreed Kenny.

[character you don't like] looked at them all in shock. "You... you're just pretending not to want me around, aren't you?" [he/she/it] stammered. "I mean, obviously..."

"No, go away," said [character you like].

[character you don't like] looked devastated for a moment, and then tried to look haughty while saying, "Fine! I didn't want to be with you jerks anyway!"

"Don't step on the mousetrap on your way out," said [character you like].

"What mousetrap? Oww!"

[character you don't like] suddenly stepped into a huge mousetrap someone had happened to set up on the floor. Oh, and it had spikes on and was poisoned.

"Serves [him/her/it] right," said [character you like], and Janeth laughed.

[character you don't like] jumped around on one foot in agony in an undignified manner, attracting the attention of several people in the nearby tables, who also started laughing. Then [he/she/it] finally lost [his/her/its] balance, and fell head first at a random anvil someone had also left lying around. There was a humorous "CLONK" sound. More people started to roar in laughter.

[character you don't like] got up unsteadily. "I'm in so much pain!" [he/she/it] wailed wussily. More laughter from the crowd ensued. Staggering ahead like a zombie, [he/she/it] ran into a few tables before colliding into a window and crashing [his/her/its] head through the glass. At the same time, a rabid mouse bit [him/her/it] on the ankle of the so far unharmed foot and a passing dog urinated in the wound.

Just as the audience thought it could get no funnier, [he/she/it] was suddenly shrunk for no reason (well, okay, by magic) into the size of a small rat, and a small cowboy of some sort, riding a small horse, appeared out of nowhere, caught [him/her/it] with his lasso and dragged [him/her/it] through a field of extra-nasty nettles, thistles, miniature cacti and small but stinging triffids. [he/she/it] yowled in pain and was mutilated almost beyond recognition.

Most of the people watching were laughing, but one was a bit slow on the uptake; he was staring in horror. "That poor person, we must do something to help!" he said.

One of his friends gave him a queer look. "No, don't you get it, it's [character you don't like]."

"What?"

"[he/she/it] is annoying!"

The slow one looked at the scene in puzzlement for a second and then burst out laughing. "That's so funny!"

And everyone else was agreeing. Some people in the room were actually having trouble breathing amidst all the laughing. The floors were littered with people rolling around and holding their stomach. Even Abduh had woken up, and seeing all the violence going on towards [character you don't like], he was for once able to share the joke with everyone else. And what a funny joke it was!

The miniature cowboy was currently pushing big needles into [character you don't like]'s mangled, shrunk body. After doing that, he dipped [him/her/it] into a pot of honey and used a miniature catapult to hurl [him/her/it] out of the window. Outside, [he/she/it] was beset upon by a horde of angry wasps and hungry ants. After they'd been eating and stinging [him/her/it] for a while, an eagle swooped down from the sky, lifted [him/her/it] in its claws and dropped [him/her/it] into a small volcano nearby, which no-one had noticed previously, where [he/she/it] slowly burned into an ugly little crisp.

And there was much rejoicing.


---
Notes-

*The curious pluralization of many of the names in the Pointy Cliffs Coast was the fault of a past cartographer known as Volomar the Unfunny, who had been so annoyed at the erroneous spelling of one name that he had produced sarcastic maps where the same error was perpetrated with the names of other places, sometimes to a ridiculous extent. Volomar realized too late that instead of making a point he had simply created an area with silly and not even funny names for places, and tried to rectify the situation by turning it all into a self-ironic joke, in a footnote no less; alas, it was too late. (back)

**Because it was. Obviously. (back)

#2 Guest_Kulyok_*

Posted 13 November 2005 - 02:55 PM

Yeah... I see your point...

But then I inserted Imoen instead of "character you don't like"...

And I could not help myself.

I rejoiced.

Even if I felt slightly ashamed afterwards.

Slightly, mind you.



Human nature, I guess.

#3 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 13 November 2005 - 03:12 PM

Dang. I was afraid it might "work". :D

Perhaps that just adds to the irony...

#4 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 13 November 2005 - 03:20 PM

(Of course, "insert the name of a character you don't like" isn't meant to be understood quite so. You're supposed to think, "Yeah, but what if it wasn't a character I don't like?")

#5 Weyoun

Posted 13 November 2005 - 08:42 PM

Right. Here we go. A virtual pat on the back for anyone who can figure out what deeper, more neutral issue with writing is also discussed here.


Oh, I've got a pretty good idea. :) Mind you, I kept filling in Viconia and Aerie at the appropriate places, almost without realising it. :D

What next took place at the inn was a series of events that is fortunate for our purposes in that not only will it be automatically funny for every reader, but also it will not offend anyone. Rather than being insensitive from anyone's point of view, it will by definition be agreed by everyone to be a very apt and quite appropriate jab at its target.


Well, I know it's not written by me if it's not offensive to anyone. :D

Abduh, Janeth and Kenny were sitting at a table in the Burning Wizard, a rather popular but eccentric tavern and inn whose main attraction was the smoldering corpse dangling in mid-air at the centre of the common room. No-one was quite sure what it was there for, but it was believed to be some kind of a cool, sophisticated reference to something or other. Abduh was trying to drink himself to a stupor but kept nodding off, while Janeth and Kenny were quietly discussing the current crisis.


References... Now those I like. Hey, is that General Grievous' head hanging above the fireplace? :P

It was then that the door opened, and Janeth saw [insert the name of a character you like] enter the room. "Look, Kenny, it's [character you like]," she said.


"Mmmphm mmph!" Kenny commented.

"Yes, I agree, [he/she] is very nice," Janeth said, because she was a sensible sort of character and would obviously be able to see that this was so.**


Granted, I didn't immediately think of Viconia after reading this passage. ;)

"Oh, hello Janeth! And Kenny," said [character you like] and walked to their table. "And... who is this?" [he/she] asked suspiciously, looking at Abduh who had fallen asleep with his face leaning against the top of his pint.


"That's Abduh. It's best to ignore him while we can," Janeth said.


Good idea. :)

[character you like] had barely had time to sit down when the door opened again, and [he/she] glanced in its direction. "Oh no," [he/she] groaned. "It's [insert the name of a character you don't like]. [he/she/it] is so annoying. [he/she/it] is always so [insert an attribute about the disliked character which you especially don't like]."


Naive? Bitchy? Throwing grenades into bars?

Naturally, being a likable character, [character you like] disliked all unlikable characters, regardless of their respective personalities otherwise.


Well, there are likable characters who simply hate everybody. :)

"Why hello!" said [character you don't like]. "You all must be just aching for my company because I'm so wonderful!"


BEEP! BEEP! Mary-Sue alert! :) Defcon 4!

"Did I tell you about how much I'm better than everyone else and how everyone should do what I want and agree with me?" [he/she/it] asked.


BEEP! BEEP! BEEP! Mary-Sue alert! Defcon 3! :)

"Not since we last met," said [character you like].


"Oh yes, I remember," said [character you don't like], and frowned. "You really behaved quite badly. You disagreed with me about things and seemed uninterested in what I had to say. Now, that was just wrong. I'm so great that of course everyone should be interested in what I have to say and agree with me."


Grrr... You wouldn't know how many students I've met think like that. The history department was one floor below the theology department. Most of the history students took their lunches in the cafetaria four floors below, because all those theology students went to the one on our floor. I once made the mistake of mentioning I was an atheist and the next thing I knew, I was approached by theology students every day, wondering how I could ignore the 'wonders of god' all around me. Grrrr... At least I wasn't the only one being pestered by them.

It is a well known fact that all annoying characters think this way and therefore keep pestering sensible characters with their nonsense even after being told not to. Happily, this generally leads to a grisly end of some sort. Just wait.


Oh, not all. Characters can be annoying in different ways, you know? :P Even Jan can be annoying, but it's not exactly the type of annoying that irks me. Different people are irked by different types of annoying behaviour. I know what you're trying to say and every character pushes certain buttons in different people, leading to an individualised reaction.

As for the grisly ends, guilty as charged. :D

[character you like] was, appropriately enough, at this point looking like [he/she] was going to be sick. [character you don't like] looked at [him/her] condescendingly and said, "Don't feel bad. It's just because you're so jealous for me being better than you. It's obvious; after all, I'm [enter the name of some arbitrary social group the disliked character belongs to]."


And despite this passage, I'm still certain that Draco and Hermione are meant to be lovers and be together for all eternity. :D

[character you don't like] looked shocked. "Of course I am! I must be. After all, I'm [enter the disliked character's proclaimed alignment], so I must be right and you wrong!"


Some alignments are just naturally dull. (You know which ones I mean) :P Though some characters handle it better than others. :D

All annoying characters of course have a misguided, self-righteous and simplified view of the alignment system as applied to the real world. Because that's stupid. They're also unfathomably stupid, arrogant, self-centered, bigoted, unreliable, cowardly, unable to take a hint, ugly and sloppy, and vain and good-looking in a superficial, unpleasant kind of way that clever characters immediately see through. Of course, sometimes they try to fool you by pretending to behave as if they're not one of these things, but you can always tell they are all of them by how you don't like them. And even if one of them is not one of these things, you can always say they are, because when said about a disliked character it becomes humour.


Unless you redesign the character. Which can be great fun, admittedly. :D

Next, [character you don't like] said something that was refined satire of [his/her/its] individual flaws: "Duh."


Heheheheh, I love doing that, myself. :)

[character you don't like] looked at them all in shock. "You... you're just pretending not to want me around, aren't you?" [he/she/it] stammered. "I mean, obviously..."


They mean to say 'Bugger off, already'. :D

"What mousetrap? Oww!"


[character you don't like] suddenly stepped into a huge mousetrap someone had happened to set up on the floor. Oh, and it had spikes on and was poisoned.


Woohoo! :D

[character you don't like] jumped around on one foot in agony in an undignified manner, attracting the attention of several people in the nearby tables, who also started laughing. Then [he/she/it] finally lost [his/her/its] balance, and fell head first at a random anvil someone had also left lying around. There was a humorous "CLONK" sound. More people started to roar in laughter.


Heh, speaking as someone who has actually used falling anvils as a plot device, I can only attest to its effectiveness. :)

Just as the audience thought it could get no funnier, [he/she/it] was suddenly shrunk for no reason (well, okay, by magic) into the size of a small rat, and a small cowboy of some sort, riding a small horse, appeared out of nowhere, caught [him/her/it] with his lasso and dragged [him/her/it] through a field of extra-nasty nettles, thistles, miniature cacti and small but stinging triffids. [he/she/it] yowled in pain and was mutilated almost beyond recognition.


Heheheheh. :D Well, I know what you're trying to say here, but I still maintain that the thought of Aerie being mutilated by by stinging Triffids is incredibly funny. Yes, the story 'works' as you put it in your reply to Kulyok.

Most of the people watching were laughing, but one was a bit slow on the uptake; he was staring in horror. "That poor person, we must do something to help!" he said.


In the words of Abe Simpson : "I'll go get a shovel." :)

And everyone else was agreeing. Some people in the room were actually having trouble breathing amidst all the laughing. The floors were littered with people rolling around and holding their stomach. Even Abduh had woken up, and seeing all the violence going on towards [character you don't like], he was for once able to share the joke with everyone else. And what a funny joke it was!


Well, you can't argue with box-office, I suppose. :D

---
Notes-

*The curious pluralization of many of the names in the Pointy Cliffs Coast was the fault of a past cartographer known as Volomar the Unfunny, who had been so annoyed at the erroneous spelling of one name that he had produced sarcastic maps where the same error was perpetrated with the names of other places, sometimes to a ridiculous extent. Volomar realized too late that instead of making a point he had simply created an area with silly and not even funny names for places, and tried to rectify the situation by turning it all into a self-ironic joke, in a footnote no less; alas, it was too late. (back)


I'm not sure, but I think something like that happened in real life as well, but don't hold me to it.

All silliness aside, I liked this story. You held up a mirror in front of us Attic-writers, and I always like that sort of thing. That doesn't mean, however, that I will change in any way. :D Seriously, though, personally I wouldn't mind if someone were to slaughter a character I like in a humorous way. I'll always lobby for Viconia's safety, for example, but in the end, if the writer decides to leave her or even kill her off, it's best to leave that up to the author's creative freedom.
TnT Enhanced Edition: http://www.fanfictio...rds-and-Tempers

---
Sith Warrior - Master, I can sense your anger.

Darth Baras - A blind, comotose lobotomy-patient could sense my anger!

---

"The New Age? It's just the old age stuck in a microwave oven for fifteen seconds" - James Randi

#6 Guest_Kulyok_*

Posted 14 November 2005 - 08:00 AM

(Of course, "insert the name of a character you don't like" isn't meant to be understood quite so. You're supposed to think, "Yeah, but what if it wasn't a character I don't like?")


Oh, I did, I did... and I sympathized with the poor soul's plight, actually.

But what I meant was that it is natural for us humans to hate, natural to wish a slow and painful death to someone, natural to wish that an enemy, or, as you eloquently put it, "a character we dislike" is torn to small pieces - this desire is impossible to hide completely. Civilization veils it with a light make-up of culture, law and being nice, but primal instincts need an air-hole, a distraction, to vent it to. Thus, as I understood it, bashing stories are born.

#7 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 14 November 2005 - 05:29 PM


What next took place at the inn was a series of events that is fortunate for our purposes in that not only will it be automatically funny for every reader, but also it will not offend anyone. Rather than being insensitive from anyone's point of view, it will by definition be agreed by everyone to be a very apt and quite appropriate jab at its target.


Well, I know it's not written by me if it's not offensive to anyone. :)

But you, too, could take advantage of my invention and create stories which no-one can complain about because everyone'll think the character deserved it! Or not. Besides, if you wrote stories with this format, there'd really be nothing that you can change apart from setting and methods of torture.


[character you like] had barely had time to sit down when the door opened again, and [he/she] glanced in its direction. "Oh no," [he/she] groaned. "It's [insert the name of a character you don't like]. [he/she/it] is so annoying. [he/she/it] is always so [insert an attribute about the disliked character which you especially don't like]."


Naive? Bitchy? Throwing grenades into bars?

I wouldn't think that last one would actually be considered as bad as the others. Unless it was a bar you were in yourself.

Well, there are likable characters who simply hate everybody. :twisted:

But if they don't, how can they not agree with the writer?


It is a well known fact that all annoying characters think this way and therefore keep pestering sensible characters with their nonsense even after being told not to. Happily, this generally leads to a grisly end of some sort. Just wait.


Oh, not all. Characters can be annoying in different ways, you know? :lol:

But, in a stereotypic story of this sort, they'll all end up being just the same.

And despite this passage, I'm still certain that Draco and Hermione are meant to be lovers and be together for all eternity. :roll:

Yuck. Sure, he'd need someone to love him and teach him not to be a total, I don't even want to use here any word that would be appropriate, but he doesn't deserve such a prize, nor does she deserve such punishment.


[character you don't like] looked shocked. "Of course I am! I must be. After all, I'm [enter the disliked character's proclaimed alignment], so I must be right and you wrong!"


Some alignments are just naturally dull. (You know which ones I mean) :D Though some characters handle it better than others. :D

This theoretically applies to any alignment; see Laufey's story about some anti-paladin. But of course, as per Attic tradition, any mention of anything resembling alignment is the stupidest thing a character can say.


[character you don't like] suddenly stepped into a huge mousetrap someone had happened to set up on the floor. Oh, and it had spikes on and was poisoned.


Woohoo! ;)

Yee-haw.


[character you don't like] jumped around on one foot in agony in an undignified manner, attracting the attention of several people in the nearby tables, who also started laughing. Then [he/she/it] finally lost [his/her/its] balance, and fell head first at a random anvil someone had also left lying around. There was a humorous "CLONK" sound. More people started to roar in laughter.


Heh, speaking as someone who has actually used falling anvils as a plot device, I can only attest to its effectiveness. ;)

I thought falling onto an anvil would be more realistic.

Well, you can't argue with box-office, I suppose. :D

Others have noticed that. In a far-future story there will probably be something about a bashing theatre, I've got lots of details worked out already.

All silliness aside, I liked this story. You held up a mirror in front of us Attic-writers, and I always like that sort of thing. That doesn't mean, however, that I will change in any way. ;)

Not at all, "be silly and let others be silly".

Seriously, though, personally I wouldn't mind if someone were to slaughter a character I like in a humorous way. I'll always lobby for Viconia's safety, for example, but in the end, if the writer decides to leave her or even kill her off, it's best to leave that up to the author's creative freedom.

One of my incentives for writing this was actually something said about Abdel Adrian. There was some talk about a hypothetical story where something horrible would happen to him (again), and Userunfriendly suggested something about having him act like a coward when faced with the threat of physical violence. Someone actually managed to find a fault that Abdel Adrian didn't have to make fun of! Anyway... The main thing that this is about is how silly some things seem from any other perspective than that of the very specific implied reader.

Another thing that bothers me is when characters or things aren't taken seriously. Sure, people can write what they want, but I think unless you're writing something like Barry Trotter, it detracts from the story to make characters or events a mere laughing stock when they're in such a position that they are or could be somehow important to the story as a whole.

#8 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 09:36 AM

Some alignments are just naturally dull. (You know which ones I mean) :) Though some characters handle it better than others. :lol:

This theoretically applies to any alignment; see Laufey's story about some anti-paladin. But of course, as per Attic tradition, any mention of anything resembling alignment is the stupidest thing a character can say.

I would point out that alignment is a meta-topic, and no character should mention it at all in any serious piece. From the characters' perspectives, they adhere to various philosophies, not alignments. Alignment is merely a convenient way to group similar philosophies for gaming purposes.

In a parody, of course, all bets are off.

One of my incentives for writing this was actually something said about Abdel Adrian. There was some talk about a hypothetical story where something horrible would happen to him (again), and Userunfriendly suggested something about having him act like a coward when faced with the threat of physical violence. Someone actually managed to find a fault that Abdel Adrian didn't have to make fun of!

The anti-Abdel. :D As I said, in a parody, all bets are off.

I would find cowardice at some point completely believable for Abdel, in keeping with my perception of the character as a glorified bully.

Anyway... The main thing that this is about is how silly some things seem from any other perspective than that of the very specific implied reader.

Actually, that's true of any writing. Many things about Dante's Inferno seem very silly to people not steeped in medieval European religious traditions. Likewise Beowulf or The Iliad and their respective cultures.

It's even true of non-fictional writing, as evidenced by the furious review of Will in the World I saw a few months ago that accused Greenblatt of writing the book to promote a political agenda.

#9 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 05:01 PM

I would point out that alignment is a meta-topic, and no character should mention it at all in any serious piece. From the characters' perspectives, they adhere to various philosophies, not alignments. Alignment is merely a convenient way to group similar philosophies for gaming purposes.

In a parody, of course, all bets are off.

Of course. I may have got some things slightly confused with each other, but I would certainly think that. I did say "resembling".

The anti-Abdel. :) As I said, in a parody, all bets are off.

Personally I'd prefer that a parody be a parody of something identifiable. Making things explicit rather than up.

I would find cowardice at some point completely believable for Abdel, in keeping with my perception of the character as a glorified bully.

Not with physical violence though, or at least I won't buy that. He'd just make animal noises and try to hit back.

Anyway... The main thing that this is about is how silly some things seem from any other perspective than that of the very specific implied reader.

Actually, that's true of any writing. Many things about Dante's Inferno seem very silly to people not steeped in medieval European religious traditions. Likewise Beowulf or The Iliad and their respective cultures.

It's even true of non-fictional writing, as evidenced by the furious review of Will in the World I saw a few months ago that accused Greenblatt of writing the book to promote a political agenda.

And that's one perspective that negates this story.

#10 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 06:17 PM

The anti-Abdel. :lol: As I said, in a parody, all bets are off.

Personally I'd prefer that a parody be a parody of something identifiable. Making things explicit rather than up.

Matter of taste. The humor in the tension between the original and the parody requires a previous knowledge of the original, which can limit the audience drastically, but it is a valid form.

I would find cowardice at some point completely believable for Abdel, in keeping with my perception of the character as a glorified bully.

Not with physical violence though, or at least I won't buy that. He'd just make animal noises and try to hit back.

True, I'm crediting him with at least animal intelligence.

Anyway... The main thing that this is about is how silly some things seem from any other perspective than that of the very specific implied reader.

Actually, that's true of any writing. Many things about Dante's Inferno seem very silly to people not steeped in medieval European religious traditions. Likewise Beowulf or The Iliad and their respective cultures.

It's even true of non-fictional writing, as evidenced by the furious review of Will in the World I saw a few months ago that accused Greenblatt of writing the book to promote a political agenda.

And that's one perspective that negates this story.

:) It's a lesson every writer must eventually learn, or else be forever distressed by their failure to achieve universal acclaim.

Or, from a slightly different point of view:

"[P]eople tend to overestimate the amount of genuine crap that gets published. This is because no writer appeals to every taste, and it's hard to tell a writer who isn't to your taste from one who isn't to anyone's taste." - Teresa Neilsen Hayden

#11 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 06:32 PM

Matter of taste. The humor in the tension between the original and the parody requires a previous knowledge of the original, which can limit the audience drastically, but it is a valid form.

But is it really a parody without that element? Incidentally, I have enjoyed parodies where it was at least partly clear to me what was being done in relation to the original, even though I didn't know said original.

"[P]eople tend to overestimate the amount of genuine crap that gets published. This is because no writer appeals to every taste, and it's hard to tell a writer who isn't to your taste from one who isn't to anyone's taste." - Teresa Neilsen Hayden

Speaking of genuine crap, I'm sure most of it is to someone's taste, otherwise how could it exist? It's just that it won't be to anyone else's taste than... well, that of someone whose prejudice makes them like it. Which would be the opposite of what the quote refers to.

I didn't use to think there was so much crap about; for years the only bad book I had read was Dragons of Some Seasonal Crap or Other. But since then I've encountered Philip Athans and, well... these days I read Something Awful. Some of my innocence is forever gone.

#12 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 07:03 PM

Matter of taste. The humor in the tension between the original and the parody requires a previous knowledge of the original, which can limit the audience drastically, but it is a valid form.

But is it really a parody without that element? Incidentally, I have enjoyed parodies where it was at least partly clear to me what was being done in relation to the original, even though I didn't know said original.

Probably not, but I'm blanking on what other term would be appropriate.

"[P]eople tend to overestimate the amount of genuine crap that gets published. This is because no writer appeals to every taste, and it's hard to tell a writer who isn't to your taste from one who isn't to anyone's taste." - Teresa Neilsen Hayden

Speaking of genuine crap, I'm sure most of it is to someone's taste, otherwise how could it exist? It's just that it won't be to anyone else's taste than... well, that of someone whose prejudice makes them like it. Which would be the opposite of what the quote refers to.

Oh, there's lots of genuine crap that's only loved by the writer. It's one of the perennial cries of the vanity-published: "I write better than the crap put out by Bestselling Author X! My novel was rejected only because I don't know the secret handshake!"

It's even a commonly-used come-on by vanity publishers pushing their scams.

It's said that Lester del Rey admitted that he knew the Thomas Covenant books were crap when he bought them. The difference between him and the twenty-two other editors who had previously rejected Lord Foul's Bane was that del Rey believed there was an audience for them, that such a massive wallow in self-pity would sell.

However, Donaldson, turgid as he is, is still light years ahead of more than half of the manuscripts the slush readers wade through.

I didn't use to think there was so much crap about; for years the only bad book I had read was Dragons of Some Seasonal Crap or Other. But since then I've encountered Philip Athans and, well... these days I read Something Awful. Some of my innocence is forever gone.

Someone pointed out, after having suffered through a few months of my critiques ;), that learning how to write well makes it much harder to read old favorites. It's certainly been true for me. Doc Smith, Annie Mac, and Anne Rice all still inhabit my "fond memories" zone, but I really don't try to reexperience them any longer.

#13 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 07:19 PM

It's said that Lester del Rey admitted that he knew the Thomas Covenant books were crap when he bought them. The difference between him and the twenty-two other editors who had previously rejected Lord Foul's Bane was that del Rey believed there was an audience for them, that such a massive wallow in self-pity would sell.

However, Donaldson, turgid as he is, is still light years ahead of more than half of the manuscripts the slush readers wade through.

I haven't read him, but while hanging around a certain discussion board elsewhere I've got the impression that those books are regarded as not so much bad as not to everyone's taste.

#14 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 15 November 2005 - 09:35 PM

It's said that Lester del Rey admitted that he knew the Thomas Covenant books were crap when he bought them. The difference between him and the twenty-two other editors who had previously rejected Lord Foul's Bane was that del Rey believed there was an audience for them, that such a massive wallow in self-pity would sell.

However, Donaldson, turgid as he is, is still light years ahead of more than half of the manuscripts the slush readers wade through.

I haven't read him, but while hanging around a certain discussion board elsewhere I've got the impression that those books are regarded as not so much bad as not to everyone's taste.

Heh. Have you ever heard of Fantasy Bedtime Hour? or clench racing?

To describe the prose in the fewest words possible, one must tell the true story of how a group of Harvard liberal arts majors sat around one evening complaining about how pretentious the language was.

From one of Dave Langford's columns:

Similarly, in the Thomas Covenant books by Stephen R. Donaldson there was the thrill of detecting when the great man had turned again to the Oxford English Dictionary to improve his style. Argute with concentration and caducity, he would make his preterite way through its gelid, sapid pages, full of beneficent mansuetude and analystic refulgence, and hurl each clinquant new discovery at you like a jerid. `They were featureless and telic, like lambent gangrene. They looked horribly like children.' One doesn't like to think what children look like in Donaldson's part of the world.



#15 Guest_Silrana_*

Posted 16 November 2005 - 04:10 AM

Heh. Have you ever heard of Fantasy Bedtime Hour? or clench racing?


I'm holding you responsible for the terrible injury I suffered from laughing so hard.

And you were right about old favorites. Even worse are children's books. A few years ago I got out some of my old Nancy Drew's to read to my daughter, and about three pages in I wasn't reading the words on the page. I was rephrasing as I went, while in my mind thinking, "Oh dear Lord these *suck*!"

#16 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 16 November 2005 - 09:43 AM

Similarly, in the Thomas Covenant books by Stephen R. Donaldson there was the thrill of detecting when the great man had turned again to the Oxford English Dictionary to improve his style. Argute with concentration and caducity, he would make his preterite way through its gelid, sapid pages, full of beneficent mansuetude and analystic refulgence, and hurl each clinquant new discovery at you like a jerid. `They were featureless and telic, like lambent gangrene. They looked horribly like children.' One doesn't like to think what children look like in Donaldson's part of the world.

Those can't all be real words. There's no way there could be that many words I don't know...

#17 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 16 November 2005 - 11:08 AM

Similarly, in the Thomas Covenant books by Stephen R. Donaldson there was the thrill of detecting when the great man had turned again to the Oxford English Dictionary to improve his style. Argute with concentration and caducity, he would make his preterite way through its gelid, sapid pages, full of beneficent mansuetude and analystic refulgence, and hurl each clinquant new discovery at you like a jerid. `They were featureless and telic, like lambent gangrene. They looked horribly like children.' One doesn't like to think what children look like in Donaldson's part of the world.

Those can't all be real words. There's no way there could be that many words I don't know...

;) They're real.

I made it through the first trilogy without too much trouble. I still admire Donaldson as a worldbuilder. I know people who still love the books, two decades on, but they're people who read like I did as a teenager: pageskimmers who know how to pick up the meanings of unknown words from context.

The only problem with that? If you actually look up the words, they often make about as much surface sense as Plath's poetry. The infamous sample I quoted wouldn't be as bad, translated, as most people say if that sort of metaphor were limited to Covenant's point of view. I can easily see a leper who has lost everything becoming obsessive about his disease to the point of anthropomorphizing it. "They were featureless and purposeful, like luminous gangrene."




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