I Don't Need Wings to Fly (on)

Oh, yes. I know I have a real knack to make her lot more annoying than she was in the game.

If she is the romance partner, I don't find that even possible...
A caricature, certainly. Lot more, no.

Well, yes, you are correct at that.

I once tried to write an Aerie I don't dislike. I managed as such, but she had turned half evil - she was schizophrenic, having still good intentions but undealt with massive anger making her mad and dangerous at times.

The bird-frying story? I liked that version of hers. That was one way Bio could have made her interesting to me.

I can't write a fluffy-glood likeable Aerie, because I simply don't find her game persona likeable.

The question is, can you write a fluffy-good character at all? And a likeable one at that. It would take a lot to make the character interesting... which is a tough task for Aerie.

Let's see : paladins portrayed as stupid goody two shoes with no brains-check.

You do have a bit of a hang-up there, you know. There even are no paladins in this story (I think Baldric was a ranger), and Theo actually likes Keldorn and writes him accordingly. Actually, I think none of the serious paladin portrayals here are of the Lawful Stoopid variety.

Aerie dieing in some brutal fashion-check.

Can't get enough of a good thing.

Evil NPCs are far better than any good ones, as long as they stay evil-check.

Neutral NPCs are far better if they have evil outbursts-check.

Who *cares*? I don't give an *expletive deleted* what their alignments are, only whether I like them or not.

NPCs reduced to a charicature of themselves-check.

In this story, yes. There are plenty of others. Perhaps there is something more to your liking.

Don't you ever get bored? I used to have these kind of fantasies when I was 13 years old (heck, I've "killed" my poor Math teacher in all kind of ways at least 200 times). It's good therapy, it's a way to blow off steam...when you're thirteen.

Well... no. Congratulations for being so much more mature than the rest of us.

And of course a fan of the bashed NPC feels hurt, and the reply is "then don't read it" and blah-blah-blah...and we go again in circles. It's all getting soooo old.

Yep, and you just joined the fray with a post the critique value of which for the author is "I don't like this kind of story." I join the fray because the 'don't read it and/or learn to understand the meaning of subjectivity of interpretation' is a way I see the problems of this board could be solved with without sacrificing the freedom of expression and interpretation.

Oh, and Theo, UU was right, the catapult idea was better, I can't imagine the girls going past them and not using one to hurl Aerie into orbit .

Well, at least there is one thing we agree on.

Which one is right? Neither, and both. It depends on how Aerie's character is interpreted. Theo's interpretation here, obviously, is closer to option 2. In another story it might be the first one.

Aye, this is very much so. It is amazing how completely different two different people can interpret the exact same lines, but when you think about it it is not so strange. We are different people, after all.

Indeed, I think all those 'character analysis' based on the personal interpretation of the game lines, is an absolutely fruitless waste of time. It's frankly impossible to force the other person to perceive the information he gets in another way, it is not something we can control or change. I can't really force myself to look at Aerie's lines from any other point of view, than what I have.

Heck, it's not only the case of Aerie. I don't like some of portrayals of Jaheira on the Attic, despite their writers trying to write her likeable (or not un-likeable), I just don't like them. Can't please them all, that's how it is.

To me it doesn't matter if it's reality or if it's FR and I write accordingly. I can't seperate myself from my outlook and my morality when I look at the FR and the characters in the game for example. I judge them not based on some abstract FR morality system, but on mine personal. And I think it is just not possible to abstract yourself from your own personal moral values, your outlook, when you write - there will always be influence dictated by your background.

Neither do I think a writer should try to distinguish himself from such influence, if the writing does not convey the feelings, the worldview of the author, rather some abstract nonsense with which I cannot empathisize, then I find such work terribly boring. It is probably a good thing that I've never read any FR novel, too.

Fair enough. I do the same thing, really.

Go ahead and exchange quotes if you will - but it never goes anywhere in my experience. A person's opinion of any NPC is generally based on a general impression and how they interpret what they say. Neither of these are something where One Truth can be established.

Example:
Aerie: "How c-c-can someone d-d-do such a h-h-horrible thing?"

Person 1: "This shows that Aerie is a caring and compassionate person who is appalled by others' suffering."
Person 2: "This shows Aerie phonily mewling in order to enhance her sweet and innocent image in the eyes of the PC."

Which one is right? Neither, and both. It depends on how Aerie's character is interpreted. Theo's interpretation here, obviously, is closer to option 2. In another story it might be the first one.

Indeed, I didn't think it would be a very fruitful thing to argue about. It's just that, and this has little to do with what character or person is concerned, something striking me as unfair is a sort of trigger I find it hard to ignore. I saw no justification to that comment. I was curious what it was based on to begin with, really.

Let's see : paladins portrayed as stupid goody two shoes with no brains-check.

You do have a bit of a hang-up there, you know. There even are no paladins in this story (I think Baldric was a ranger), and Theo actually likes Keldorn and writes him accordingly. Actually, I think none of the serious paladin portrayals here are of the Lawful Stoopid variety.

Well, actually Lord E, he was a paladin... and why not? I'm not obliged to portray every paladin in a positive light. Even Keldorn whom I like, yes, will not be flawless and without prejudices when he joins a group with a Drow cleric and a Thayan Red Wizard in it. But he certainly won't be a brainless smiter who kills his party members because of the ethical conflict it will present.

And of course a fan of the bashed NPC feels hurt, and the reply is "then don't read it" and blah-blah-blah...and we go again in circles. It's all getting soooo old.

Aw, come on, we're introducing new variants here. Now, for example, I didn't really feel hurt, I was just avoiding the inclination. And writing that down because I had nothing better to do.

If you are bored of the "dying in some brutal fashion" joke, perhaps you'll like the next thing I'm planning. Or perhaps not.

Indeed, I didn't think it would be a very fruitful thing to argue about. It's just that, and this has little to do with what character or person is concerned, something striking me as unfair is a sort of trigger I find it hard to ignore. I saw no justification to that comment. I was curious what it was based on to begin with, really.

I know how it feels like from experience and I can sympathize, but once again - you see the thread and the general trend that is expressed here and it is very likely that most of the comments might upset you since you like Aerie. I really think that you are making it awfully difficult for yourself - instead of reading this thread, I could instead PM you with some links of stories that portray Aerie in a much more favourable way. It is hard to pull back when you have got involved in a discussion, but I would advise you in a friendly manner not to continue it, for your own sake.

I don't think that even her fans can claim that she is not awfully selfish.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just thought I'd point it out.

Well, actually Lord E, he was a paladin... and why not? I'm not obliged to portray every paladin in a positive light. Even Keldorn whom I like, yes, will not be flawless and without prejudices when he joins a group with a Drow cleric and a Thayan Red Wizard in it. But he certainly won't be a brainless smiter who kills his party members because of the ethical conflict it will present.

Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding (I read some sentence in a way that I interpreted wrong).

But the point still is: this is not a serious story, and not intended to be one, and it is pretty damn obvious. So I think it is not worth getting worked up about that it contains a caricature of a paladin, since it is all about caricatures anyway.

I don't think that even her fans can claim that she is not awfully selfish.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just thought I'd point it out.

*nod* I agree with you there - it *is* possible to interpret her not being selfish. I don't see it, but if we are fair the freedom of interpretation goes both ways.

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Well... no. Congratulations for being so much more mature than the rest of us.

I'm not I often fall back to the 13 year old view of the world, thank you very much.

Yep, and you just joined the fray with a post the critique value of which for the author is "I don't like this kind of story." I join the fray because the 'don't read it and/or learn to understand the meaning of subjectivity of interpretation' is a way I see the problems of this board could be solved with without sacrificing the freedom of expression and interpretation.

It's not a critique. You know very well that the place for critique is the Forge, not the main board. I never said I didn't like it, only that posting a thing that has been done x times over and always provoked the same reactions is getting boring.

Oh, and Theo, UU was right, the catapult idea was better, I can't imagine the girls going past them and not using one to hurl Aerie into orbit .

Well, at least there is one thing we agree on.

At least he could've thought that the dog kennels could have made a nice landing site. All those hungry puppies... The well could hold some interesting opportunities as well.

Well, actually Lord E, he was a paladin... and why not? I'm not obliged to portray every paladin in a positive light. Even Keldorn whom I like, yes, will not be flawless and without prejudices when he joins a group with a Drow cleric and a Thayan Red Wizard in it. But he certainly won't be a brainless smiter who kills his party members because of the ethical conflict it will present.

He attacks Viconia (and usually kills her. After all, Keldorn and Carsomyr vs. Viconia is not an even match). It happened to me a couple of times, but the good old "reload" usually takes care of that.

I think it would be interesting to discuss the different personality interpretations, but that would require more trust between the participants, so that no-one would assume the other was trying to start some kind of a fight and trying to prove just theirs right. Besides, I'd be outnumbered anyway.

But the point still is: this is not a serious story, and not intended to be one, and it is pretty damn obvious. So I think it is not worth getting worked up about that it contains a caricature of a paladin, since it is all about caricatures anyway.

I only said that it contains certain things that have been used x times over. Sheesh, don't get all excited now, I was only sayin' that the cheese is old, not that is bad.

I don't think that even her fans can claim that she is not awfully selfish.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just thought I'd point it out.

*nod* I agree with you there - it *is* possible to interpret her not being selfish. I don't see it, but if we are fair the freedom of interpretation goes both ways.

Sigh. You are correct Lord E. I guess, I did not make the margin to which she can be interpreted as 'likeable' wide enough, so that it would include the trait 'unselfishness'. Could be also because I have never seen an interpretation of Aerie to which I could assign the trait of being "unselfish".

It's not a critique. You know very well that the place for critique is the Forge, not the main board. I never said I didn't like it, only that posting a thing that has been done x times over and always provoked the same reactions is getting boring.

What goes for critique goes for the other boards too, as I understand it, though. But whatever, you said it, I replied it and it's done. Let it lay.

You now, I am demented that way that I laugh at each and every new variation of Itchy and Scratchy show in the Simpsons as if I never have seen the first one. I can't get enough of it. I guess it is the same with fics like this. About the boringness of the reaction I agree though.

At least he could've thought that the dog kennels could have made a nice landing site. All those hungry puppies... The well could hold some interesting opportunities as well.

That's the ticket!

I know how it feels like from experience and I can sympathize, but once again - you see the thread and the general trend that is expressed here and it is very likely that most of the comments might upset you since you like Aerie. I really think that you are making it awfully difficult for yourself - instead of reading this thread, I could instead PM you with some links of stories that portray Aerie in a much more favourable way. It is hard to pull back when you have got involved in a discussion, but I would advise you in a friendly manner not to continue it, for your own sake.

I think it expands my understanding to examine differing perspectives in a (mostly) calmly objective manner. I've already learnt something here, too. Don't worry about me, just remember not to think that anything I might say about the subject is meant very fervently.

I don't know if I want to read many more positive stories about Aerie. If I still thought they got it wrong, it might just be worse. Sort of like Jews minded being under the rule of Christians more than just Romans. (I've been studying too much.) Thanks, anyway.

Yes - it can be interesting, but whenever I see it happen it sooner or later (usually sooner) turns into a heated, emotional discussion that causes hurt feelings and strife. It is a dangerous area to tread on.

What causes even more problems is that some people, such as I, disregard game-technical information such as stats and alignment tags in their portrayals and images, while others use them as partial information they base their portrayal on. And of course the views of these groups clash.

But as for you being in minority (of the vocal members anyway): don't care about that! It is not a competition that must or, indeed, can, be won or lost. Your idea of Aerie is no more wrong than anyone else's. My perception of her is influenced by my values, culture, philosophy, religion, life experiences, etc. etc. and so is anyone else's. No-one can claim the right to the Truth.

And besides, if you want to look for safety in numbers - regarding Aerie the Attic is somewhat of an anomaly, at least the last time I checked (some 2 years ago) - at any other BG2 related board Aerie-fans far outnumber the detractors.

What causes even more problems is that some people, such as I, disregard game-technical information such as stats and alignment tags in their portrayals and images, while others use them as partial information they base their portrayal on. And of course the views of these groups clash.

I think it's only logical that if you look at what the character was intended to be like, that can work as a guideline to interpreting their motivations and he like if there's a disagreement. Of course, some of them are very artificial, for example Yoshimo's physical stat scores seem to suggest that he could juggle fairly large rocks in the air and even if one did fall on his head it wouldn't have much effect because he's so tough.

And besides, if you want to look for safety in numbers - regarding Aerie the Attic is somewhat of an anomaly, at least the last time I checked (some 2 years ago) - at any other BG2 related board Aerie-fans far outnumber the detractors.

Just my luck. I'd guess this is probably the best place otherwise.