66 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

[quote][quote]Here's a little something different from me! You see, I got to thinking about Kivan the other day, and decided to try to whip up something about an NPC that I'd never really given much thought before. I hope you'll like it. [/quote]
Yay! A Kivan fic. It will be interesting to see what you come up with, considering that there's very little to go on w/r/t his personality in the game, except for all his Deheriana/vengeance comments. I really like the guy, although I don't think of him in a romantic light.
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Well, as you will know by now, I went by what I perceive in the game, namely that Deheriana and vengeance is all he has left.

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[quote]Empty[/quote]
Btw, I loved your title. So amorphous, it can apply to almost anything in your story: how Kivan is empty, his vengeance is empty, Kyllin's (lol! Great pun of a PC name) victory is empty. You always challenge your readers, which is just one reason why your stories are such a delight.
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Thank you!

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[quote]Soon, it would all be over. The pain would be gone, as would the hatred, the emptiness that had lived at the core of him since that day, the day when she was lost to him.[/quote]
Omg! This is just such a tragic opening, especially when re-reading this (and therefore knowing the ending).
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Oh yes...poor man.

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Another aspect of this that I like is your story structure. You begin plausibly enough and little by little lock us within his ?deluded ?warped world. The descent into his vengeance-ridden mind is so gradually that his perceptions don't *appear* awry -- unlike if you had commenced the story w/ the voices in his head -- just like his descent into his delusions was possibly gradual as well.
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Thanks! Yes, I tried to make it very gradual, make it appear entirely natural and logical at first, much as it does to him.

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[quote]The temple ahead didn’t look so much built as secreted, an ugly and dark structure, covered with hideous statues of skulls and monsters. He heard his companions whispering quietly, nervously, about their impressions of it, but he remained silent as always. Watching. Listening.[/quote]
Think he would've made a good Helmite, if he hadn't been an elf?
Btw, this was an excellent thumbnail description. You really show Kivan's dislike of this place by how he describes it to himself ("foul residue").
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It's a pretty unsightly place all right.

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[quote]Tazok. Let Kyllin slay her brother, and take her own vengeance for her foster father’s death, for the attempts on her life. But Tazok is mine.[/quote]
And his obsession w/ revenge has so tainted Kivan's mind that he sees Kyllin's quest merely as her seeking vengeance against Sarevok.
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Exactly. That's where his focus lies, after all.

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[quote]Kivan nodded quietly to himself, checking his arrows.[/quote]
I don't know how to say this, but the entire arrow inventory passage was ... chilling. Chilling and lethal. It sort of reminds me of Norman Bates (in that horror movie classic Psycho) showing off his bird taxidermy trophies.
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Wow! I hadn't thought of Norman Bates...interesting parallel! It was meant to be somewhat creepy, yes.

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[quote]And then, finally, his price, his most precious arrow of all.[/quote]
Um no offense, but you probably meant "prize," right?
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Yep, you're right. Thanks for pointing it out!

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[quote]It was black, black as midnight, and the feather was black as well. [/quote]
Tazok is black-hearted, the arrow is black, vengeance is dark. I like how you arranged this. I'd never tried the AOS...
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I don't think I've tried it either, actually.

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[quote]I will look him into the eyes, into his foul little piggish eyes. He will know me when he sees me, and he will fear me. And I will say: ‘I am Kivan Lil’arlin’ellen. You tortured and killed my beloved Deheriana. Now you die.’ [/quote]
Another incremental descent into his vengeance-madness, his fantasy world.
Quote sounds familiar: Princess Bride?
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Princess Bride, yes. One of my favorite movies ever.

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[quote]Yes…he will die, and we will both have peace at last. I love you…my Kivan, my devoted one. [/quote]
In some ways he reminds me a lot of Norman Bates. Is he imagining the voice? Is it the elven goddess of vengeance, mimicking Deheriana in an effort to turn Kivan to evil? I started to feel unsettled when he obsessed about the arrows, but this part here really made me creep out -- when I first read this, and more so the second and third times.
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I think this is only his imagination at work, but your interpretation is a very interesting one!

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[quote]Kyllin frowned, but then she shrugged and walked on, focused on her own quest for vengeance. How sad that, from the get-go, he only thinks of Kyllin in terms of her having the same motivation or in how she's helped him with *his* goals.[/quote]
There he goes, thinking about vengeance again, whereas Kyllin seems genuinely concerned about him. I'm wondering in terms of backstory: do you think she loved Kivan, or merely was fond of him? You really make me wonder, what with her distraction for his well-being here, then her crying over him later... That would be the height of irony, wouldn't it? He's focusing on (possibly) non-extant voices in his head, when there are flesh and blood people who care about him.
Btw, I was impressed how you enumerated the party members w/o it sounding forced.
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*nods* I think she may well have been in love with him, actually, but he isn't even aware of it, sadly.

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[quote]When he fought, then he was perfectly focused, his arrows flying with the utmost precision as they had always done. When he did not, then he retreated away from this world of shades and ghosts, into the real one, where Deheriana awaited him, smiling with her arms outstretched. [/quote]
And when I read this line, I did a double-take and had to re-read it to make sure it said what I thought. Omg!!!! He's really lost it.
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Oh yes, I'm afraid so. He's a bit of a 'walking dead man'.

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Tazok simply stared at him, his piggish eyes registering nothing but utter confusion. Then he opened his mouth and spoke, a single word that broke all the painstakingly constructed walls in Kivan’s mind, a word that tore the old wound in his soul open once again. “Who?”[/quote]
The height of irony--but it makes perfect sense. He's a brute! He ran assorted bandit troups! He *liked* torturing people! Why, oh why, would he remember one random brutality amongst hundreds, thousands maybe?
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My point exactly. I think it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't remember.


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I am nothing. Nothing. It wasn’t Deheriana who kept me alive. It was Tazok, and the thought, the need of slaying him. And now…he is gone. Gone. I am all alone.[/quote]
This had to be the most tragic part of your story. So powerfully written, such evocative emotions, in such a limited space. *This* is the real denouement.
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Thank you! High praise indeed!


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There are no words to express how wonderful -- how heartbreakingly tragic (precisely because it is so plausible) -- your vignette was. I am in awe.
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Thank you for sharing this masterpiece.[/quote]

*blush* I'm very flattered by your kind words, and I'm glad you enjoyed it that much, especially since you're a fan of Kivan!

[Laufey]

Yep, I totally agree with that one. Scar and Officer Vai may be nice people, but they have some truly hopeless soldiers in their ranks, I think. Which, of course, holds true for *any* organization. Gather enough people together, and some of them will be less than pleasant to deal with.

::nods:: You make an excellent point! And I wasn't too thrilled by Duke Eltan's attitude either.

You wonder what they teach 'em in drill camp. It's a dangerous thing when a person walks around and proclaims themselves the law -- and actually believes it!

Oh gods, yes... 'I AM the Law!' That line really grates in my head every time I hear it.

[Laufey]

There are plenty of RL cases when a person has been accused and even convicted of a crime, and then been found to be innocent, despite all the evidence that seemed to indicate the opposite.

There are also plenty of RL cases when a murderer, rapist or another criminal walks away unpunished. At any rate, the choice is between killing a soldier doing his duty and a priestess of Shar. Basically the game forbids you to step aside or investigate, so no matter what you do you may have killed an innocent.

That's true, you can't know if you do right or wrong. I would like to point out though, at this point you don't know that Viconia is a priestess of Shar. That's not what she's accused of either, and as I understand the Realms it also isn't illegal in itself. All you know is this:

'Step aside travelers, I am a member of the Flaming Fist. The woman you are harboring is wanted for murder of the foulest sort. She is a dark elf; it should be obvious that she is evil.'

Viconia: 'They lie, I've done nothing wrong'

The way I see it, that certainly sounds as if Vic is judged by her race. If the FF wanted my respect, he'd have to do better than that. Innocent until proven guilty is what I prefer, especially if there's a death penalty involved.

[Laufey]

Erm. You probably know that some of us tend to regard thinks as 'good according to booklet' or 'Lawful Good' according to characters sheet as an un-valid arguments. Just thought to point that out to you. It's all about the perception that you get from palying the game and feeling the story...

I know that POV. For me it is not so. I believe that character sheet and information in the book accompanying the game is part of playing the game and feeling the story. I believe that good characters are good and evil characters are evil.

Ah, but that is an interesting problem all by itself! After all, not everybody defines 'good' and 'evil' the same way. Human beings have discussed those definitions for thousands of years, and still don't agree on them.

So, just because Bioware defines a character as 'good' or 'evil' doesn't necessarily mean I agree. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

Balthazar is a good example of this. His character sheet says 'LG'. He kills plenty of Bhaalspawn, many of them innocent people, for some 'higher purpose'. Not only that, he lets his own people starve and be neglected. No matter what his character sheet says, that does not match my definition of a good person in any way, and I don't see why I should try to twist my own mind into matching the Bioware definition. He probably *thinks* of himself as a good person, but so have many other ruthless people throughout history done.

To each their own...we have very different ways of viewing this, I suppose.

[Laufey]

Oh yes, and one thing I forgot, and something I consider a very good example of why alignments and character sheets are inherently flawed.

In NWN, we have one NPC, the half-orc barbarian Daealan, whose alignment sheet says 'CG'. Yet, throughout the game at least I think he acts very much like a LG. He respects his society's rules and laws, and considers them just, even when they have caused himself suffering, etc. I think he'd have made a fine paladin, myself. So, why isn't he Lawful? Well...third edition rules say that barbarians have to be chaotic, and so he is said to be that, but this is one case where I certainly think the map doesn't match the terrain.

[Laufey]

'Step aside travelers, I am a member of the Flaming Fist. The woman you are harboring is wanted for murder of the foulest sort. She is a dark elf; it should be obvious that she is evil.'

Viconia: 'They lie, I've done nothing wrong'

The way I see it, that certainly sounds as if Vic is judged by her race. If the FF wanted my respect, he'd have to do better than that. Innocent until proven guilty is what I prefer, especially if there's a death penalty involved.

Actually he asks you to step aside, since she is wanted; when you do that she attacks you. He does not say that she is accused of murder because of being a dark elf. Just that she is evil because drow en-masse are evil. Which is not entirely untrue. Any sighting of a dark elf is a potential raid of a community.

And if you don't step aside, then he attacks you, without you having attacked him first. Also, dark elves are a potential threat, yes. But that only merits a certain suspicioun towards Viconia, it doesn't prove anything about her.

[Laufey]

Balthazar is a good example of this. His character sheet says 'LG'. He kills plenty of Bhaalspawn, many of them innocent people, for some 'higher purpose'. Not only that, he lets his own people starve and be neglected. No matter what his character sheet says, that does not match my definition of a good person in any way, and I don't see why I should try to twist my own mind into matching the Bioware definition. He probably *thinks* of himself as a good person, but so have many other ruthless people throughout history done.

Melisan does the same, but her purpose is to aquire power, while Balzatar's is to destroy the power of Bhaal. He does it by the means he has. It is a difficult choice because of his awareness of what Bhaal's blood is, and of what Mellisan does. His choices might not appear good, but logic behind his actions is coming from a good side.

I disagree with this. For a LG person, I don't think you can use an 'ends justify the means' reasoning, since that is extremely dangerous. Yes, it is hard to know where to draw the line sometimes, and people may disagree on where it is to be drawn. But for me personally, there are certain things a good person simply doesn't do, no matter what might be achieved by them, and these are such things.

To each their own...we have very different ways of viewing this, I suppose.

As for your NWN example, I did not play it, but I thought that the system actually changes your alignment based on your behaivour and if you go outside your class definition you loose the ability to act like a person of this class (ie stop being a druid if you stop being neutral). That what should have happened to the barbarian if he acted lawfully, since then he is obviously not much of a barbarian (as a class, not nationality). If he is an NPC I am sure he enteres the houses w/o owners permission, participated in stealing things etc w/o protesting, etc ie not acting lawfully all the time.

Yes, that is exactly my point. It is the rigidity of the alignment system that makes it necessary for him to be Chaotic, despite the fact that his personality suits a Lawful better. And since he's a joinable NPC he goes along with whatever you do, more so than the BG2 NPC:s do (but even Keldorn can be in your party if you go around robbing houses.) Anyway, my point is that the alignment tag doesn't match the character's personality in this case, and I think this isn't the only NPC where that is so.

[Laufey]

Oh yes, and one thing I forgot, and something I consider a very good example of why alignments and character sheets are inherently flawed.

In NWN, we have one NPC, the half-orc barbarian Daealan, whose alignment sheet says 'CG'. Yet, throughout the game at least I think he acts very much like a LG. He respects his society's rules and laws, and considers them just, even when they have caused himself suffering, etc. I think he'd have made a fine paladin, myself. So, why isn't he Lawful? Well...third edition rules say that barbarians have to be chaotic, and so he is said to be that, but this is one case where I certainly think the map doesn't match the terrain.

NWN classifies Daealan as CG? I always assumed he was LG. Hmm.. that's funny.

Yes, all barbarians have to be chaotic, but he certainly behaves very lawful.

[Laufey]

That reminds me of a very frustrating, yet amuzing discussion, when some guy was trying to prove that Jaheira is an amazingly poorly written character because she doesn't behave like a true TN should behave, esp, in the course of her romance. Like I said - discussing NPC's is absolutely fruitless. I don't think I have ever changed my opinion on NPC's from such discussions - but I have changed them based on their portrayal in the stories itself

LOL! Actually I was thinking of Jaheira myself, as a good example of a character who doesn't match her character sheet, because I see her as a Good character, probably NG. That doesn't mean she's a badly written character though. All it means is that in 2nd edition, druids are only allowed to be TN. If SoA had been 3rd edition, I personally wouldn't have been surprised if Jae had been NG. I do agree that she's a great character, easily one of my favorites, with many complex layers to her personality.

[Laufey]

Personally, I don't place too much stock in alignment. I prefer to judge a character by their actual words and actions as much as possible and compare to people in real life who behave the same way or have had similar experiences.

*nod* I agree with that. It's the same if I read a book, for example. The writer has perhaps intended a character to be perceived as heroic and nice, but if I think the character is a nasty person, then I don't care much what the intentions were. After all, I can't change my own perception of morality when it doesn't match the writer's, and it's the same in the game. People have very different ideas about what it means to be a 'good', 'just', 'kind' or whatever character, after all.