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The Knight Rogue, chapter 3


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#21 Guest_Anonymous_*

Posted 09 November 2002 - 09:06 PM

All this talk of paladins reminds me of an article I read a week ago. A small excerpt, if I may...

So how does one willingly sacrifice his life to his god of choice when there are fifty other gods who'll be happy to hand out free passes to Elysium in exchange for a few coins in the donation box? How does one march boldly into the final battle when he knows that the cleric is waiting out back with a resurrection scroll handy? How does one not turn into a Lawful Stupid tank with a portable first aid kit in a world where there are fifteen different kinds of paladins, each vehemently defending the beliefs of their own particular god? How does one avoid becoming just another Lawful Annoying fighter/cleric with a fancy magical horse?

It's not easy. But then, nobody ever said that role-playing a paladin was going to be easy.


For any interested, the entire article can be found here: (Don't click on the link, I can't get it to work. Copy and paste the URL)

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/archetypology31jan02.html


#22 Guest_Fantysm_*

Posted 09 November 2002 - 09:33 PM

> "Thank you. Thanks a lot. It...it does seem a lot clearer now."

> She sighed. "Although sometimes, I wish that Torm himself might come

> down from the Mount and let me know things are going well, just so I

> wouldn't have to suffer through so much anxiety."

> "My child," the knight said, raising his gauntlets so that

> Vivienne could see the words written all over them, the words 'loyalty'

> and 'duty' in thousands of languages, "what do you think I've just

> done?"

> Then he smiled, and vanished.

That was so cool.

Borg: Hmph. I say forget the whole knight thing. Rogues ain't so bad, once you get to know 'em. Especially . . . oh, nevermind.



#23 Weyoun

Posted 09 November 2002 - 09:37 PM

> Thanks to everyone for your commentary on the last chapter, which did put

> my nervousness to rest (for now :)).

See? Nothing to worry about.

> Vivienne slipped into the library, silently closing the door behind her.

> The philosophy classes had been reaching a fever pitch lately, especially

> with the upcoming tests. That meant that the library was generally crowded

> at all convenient times of the day. Vivienne had found a good solution,

> however; already accustomed to odd hours of the day, she simply decided

> that she'd go to the library and study early in the morning, when few of

> the squires were up.

Well, at least Viv didn't have to sit though economics classes. During my own economy lectures, I regularly wished I had been hit by a car on the way to class. :(

> Which is what made her situation so difficult. She was also one of the

> most talented people in the Grayclaws (even if she wasn't officially a

> Grayclaw). Often she'd pick locks other people couldn't, or filch things

> from experienced thieves' pockets so expertly that they swore up and down

> she'd never touched them. And she had an uncanny ability to remain unheard

> that most veteran rogues were hard pressed to duplicate. So it was not

> inaccurate to say that she had potential there, as well.

Yikes. Quite an inner conflict.

> "If anything, I think I'd be understating it," Vivi said.

> "Castellian, after all, seems to treat all kinds of rogues as

> soulsucking spawn of the Gray Waste."

> The knight chuckled. "True, but remember, Castellian's book is old.

> Very old, in fact, and it's placed on the syllabus nowadays mostly to spur

> discussion about how things have changed."

Hmmm, a 2E book, you mean? :) Or even a 1E? :)

> Vivi nodded again, and the knight continued. "And we all know that

> the Grayclaws certainly aren't bad at all when it comes to thieves'

> guilds. I'm sure any city in Amn, or Baldur's Gate or Westgate or Suzail

> or any other major city would love to have a thieves' guild like the

> Grayclaws, who generally leave the people alone and who try not to be a

> nuisance in daily life. And it's not as if they're particularly unjust,

> either. After all, I'd be the first to say that they do make sure some

> nobles get their due - like Lord Vaubon."

Sorta like Robin Hood, you mean? Stealing from the rich, but... not getting around to giving it to the poor yet? :)

> "Thank you. Thanks a lot. It...it does seem a lot clearer now."

> She sighed. "Although sometimes, I wish that Torm himself might come

> down from the Mount and let me know things are going well, just so I

> wouldn't have to suffer through so much anxiety."

> "My child," the knight said, raising his gauntlets so that

> Vivienne could see the words written all over them, the words 'loyalty'

> and 'duty' in thousands of languages, "what do you think I've just

> done?"

> Then he smiled, and vanished.

Heh, great stuff,

---Weyoun


TnT Enhanced Edition: http://www.fanfictio...rds-and-Tempers

---
Sith Warrior - Master, I can sense your anger.

Darth Baras - A blind, comotose lobotomy-patient could sense my anger!

---

"The New Age? It's just the old age stuck in a microwave oven for fifteen seconds" - James Randi

#24 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 09 November 2002 - 09:55 PM

> For any interested, the entire article can be found here: (Don't click

> on the link, I can't get it to work. Copy and paste the URL)

> http://www.rpg.net/news +reviews/columns/archetypology31jan02.html

Interesting. Though I can't say I agree. Thanks for sharing.


#25 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 09 November 2002 - 09:57 PM

> That was so cool.

Glad you liked it :(


#26 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 09 November 2002 - 09:59 PM

> See? Nothing to worry about.

Easy to say, that is.

> Hmmm, a 2E book, you mean? :( Or even a 1E? :)

Hah! Not quite. Just old.

> Sorta like Robin Hood, you mean? Stealing from the rich, but... not

> getting around to giving it to the poor yet? :)

As I explained in the first chapter, they ARE the poor...so they figure that they're giving to the poor already :) Thanks for reading.


#27 Guest_zan_*

Posted 10 November 2002 - 08:32 PM

> Thanks to everyone for your commentary on the last chapter, which did put

> my nervousness to rest (for now :)). Anyway, here's the second-last

> chapter of Vivi's introduction.

liked this one, particularly the depth of research (but then from you i wouldn't expect anything less ;)). lots of insights into the Tormish creed, and a great depiction of Vivi's struggle to reconcile her opposing beliefs. the ending was especially good - made me go back and reread the story again!

> The knight nodded. "Essentially...yes. We don't look for the

> destruction of evil, exactly, as much as the promotion of good, which can

> be quite a different matter entirely. Especially since eventually, some

> situations may force us to descend to the level of evil to eliminate evil,

> which is simply pointless. Now, as I was saying, the goals of the paladins

> of ages past were fixed entirely on this artistic creation of perfect

> good. That was their objective and nothing else would suffice. And they

> wrote that way, as you can see."

> "People have, for the most part, discarded these dangerous illusions

> of perfection, especially since when striving for perfection and only

> perfection there is the chance that you sacrifice too much along the way.

> When your eyes are fixed on the stars, you lose sight of the road ahead.

> So the focus has changed from Castellian's ideal of total 'justice in all

> minutiae' to a more pragmatic approach of aiming for whatever the best

> possible just society happens to be."

absolutely loved this section...perfect encapsulation of how a faith may evolve over time. and it seems likely that the Tormish faith would be more flexible, and more able to adjust to a changing world. the line about the stars and the road was wonderful :)

it's also a interesting source of debate. is it better to stick to your ideals, to treat them as laws rather than moral guidelines? there's something pure about such determination, and the desire to be something more than you are...but, as Torm states here, it can be a very dangerous approach.

anyway! enjoying this a great deal so far, and looking forward to the next :)

zan


#28 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 10 November 2002 - 09:20 PM

> liked this one, particularly the depth of research (but then from you i

> wouldn't expect anything less ;)).

Heh. Just a habit of mine :)

> lots of insights into the Tormish

> creed, and a great depiction of Vivi's struggle to reconcile her opposing

> beliefs. the ending was especially good - made me go back and reread the

> story again!

Glad you liked it!

> absolutely loved this section...perfect encapsulation of how a faith may

> evolve over time. and it seems likely that the Tormish faith would be more

> flexible, and more able to adjust to a changing world. the line about the

> stars and the road was wonderful :)

I wanted to point out that faith doesn't necessarily have to remain static over time, especially in a world where the deities are more "hands-on". Torm, having been around for centuries, certainly can see and understand the change - and even prompt it himself. After all, anything that stays the same always grows more and more irrelevant as time passes.

> it's also a interesting source of debate. is it better to stick to your

> ideals, to treat them as laws rather than moral guidelines? there's

> something pure about such determination, and the desire to be something

> more than you are...but, as Torm states here, it can be a very dangerous

> approach.

There is a certain appeal of purity in sticking resolutely to one's ideals, but that has to be tempered by the fact that ideals, like anything else, are not inherently correct. Ideals can be wrong. Ideals can become wrong, and failure to accept that is just rigidity, which isn't a positive attribute for anyone.

> anyway! enjoying this a great deal so far, and looking forward to the next

> :)

Thanks for reading!


#29 Guest_Jaimevelasco_*

Posted 10 November 2002 - 09:48 PM

> They had better. Knights aren't just a strong arm for the church. They

> represent the church, for good or for ill, and so they should know inside

> and out the philosophical bases for their church's stance - and should be

> able to question and confront them to make sure they really believe them.

> That's why I am rather unsettled at the depictions of

> "paladunces". Simply put, if they were really that arrogant,

> stupid, or whatever, they wouldn't have been made knights - or paladins in

> the first place, for that matter. Which is why I always portray the

> arrogant stuck-ups as squires...because they'd never make it past that

> stage.

Sorry for stepping in, but I wanted to give an opinion.

In my stories, I have a certain tendency to portray the paladins not as arrogant, stuffy or whatever, but more about the fanatical type: Holy warriors with the holy mission of ending all evil.

As I have been watching the definitions of LG and NG, I wonder if maybe I went too far. For example, in one of my stories, Menzorraban fell to an united surface army, and the paladins killed all the prisoners they could find, including children.

So, what do you think?


#30 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 10 November 2002 - 09:59 PM

> As I have been watching the definitions of LG and NG, I wonder if maybe I

> went too far. For example, in one of my stories, Menzorraban fell to an

> united surface army, and the paladins killed all the prisoners they could

> find, including children.

> So, what do you think?

I think killing the children falls to the level of evil. No true paladin would do such a thing. You're portraying NG warriors, who are only concerned about ending evil in all ways, and who are most likely to fall to the level of evil themselves in doing so.


#31 Guest_zan_*

Posted 10 November 2002 - 10:47 PM

> I wanted to point out that faith doesn't necessarily have to remain static

> over time, especially in a world where the deities are more

> "hands-on". Torm, having been around for centuries, certainly

> can see and understand the change - and even prompt it himself. After all,

> anything that stays the same always grows more and more irrelevant as time

> passes.

very, very true. I've always seen belief systems, like languages, as organic beings; changing not by design, but by the actions and thoughts of the people practising them. Differences in interpretation, bending rules to situations...there are many ways apparently static systems can change. And the process is both gradual and unconscious - people aren't aware that they're changing something simply by following its rules. (i'm excluding the rare individuals who deliberately aim towards revolution - not because I consider their actions any less valid, but because they're extraordinary in their rarity)

a paladin would presumably have studied the tenats of his or her god for many, many years; but there would always be a difference between theory and practice, no matter how subtle. I don't believe (though I may be wrong!) that a paladin could ever follow the "rules" down to the last letter. It simply wouldn't be possible, unless the paladin in question was an unthinking robot (and given the nature of the class, that's hardly possible)

> There is a certain appeal of purity in sticking resolutely to one's

> ideals, but that has to be tempered by the fact that ideals, like anything

> else, are not inherently correct. Ideals can be wrong. Ideals can become

> wrong, and failure to accept that is just rigidity, which isn't a positive

> attribute for anyone.

exactly. but there is still that element of conflict there, which makes paladins rather interesting as a class. Situations force them to adapt to circumstance, but the ideal still remains fixed in their mind...and ten years down the line, a paladin may well wonder what has happened to the idealistic squire they once were. immense dramatic potential :-(

zan



#32 Requiem

Posted 11 November 2002 - 08:13 AM

> > "Thank you. Thanks a lot. It...it does seem a lot clearer now."

> She sighed. "Although sometimes, I wish that Torm himself might come

> down from the Mount and let me know things are going well, just so I

> wouldn't have to suffer through so much anxiety."

> "My child," the knight said, raising his gauntlets so that

> Vivienne could see the words written all over them, the words 'loyalty'

> and 'duty' in thousands of languages, "what do you think I've just

> done?"

> Then he smiled, and vanished.

Oh well done! I've not had time to comment much lately but wanted to let you know how much I've been enjoying this. I like the way you're having Vivi examine her beliefs and her world, particularly given her calling. The study sesson, her reaction to the book and her thoughts on her own life really draw me to her as a character. I'm rather eager to read more. :)

j.


#33 Guest_Anonymous_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 01:32 PM

> Thanks to everyone for your commentary on the last chapter, which did put

> my nervousness to rest (for now :)).

That's good. :)

> Vivienne slipped into the library, silently closing the door behind her.

> The philosophy classes had been reaching a fever pitch lately, especially

> with the upcoming tests. That meant that the library was generally crowded

> at all convenient times of the day. Vivienne had found a good solution,

> however; already accustomed to odd hours of the day, she simply decided

> that she'd go to the library and study early in the morning, when few of

> the squires were up.

Good idea.

> As it was, there were two competing influences almost tearing her apart.

It's always difficult when that happens...

> When she was done, the senior knight leaned back in his chair and said,

> "Well...I don't think there's quite as much of a problem as you think

> there is."

If you say so.

> Then he smiled, and vanished.

Nice chapter. Loved the ending. :)

Silver


#34 Guest_Jaimevelasco_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 06:43 PM

> I think killing the children falls to the level of evil. No true paladin

> would do such a thing. You're portraying NG warriors, who are only

> concerned about ending evil in all ways, and who are most likely to fall

> to the level of evil themselves in doing so.

Mmm. There were some references that those paladins were actually a fanatical (although not rogue) faction. I guess that not all paladins are the same. We can have the heroic type, and also the fanatical type. Although I agree that most paladins would not kill drow children, there are some that would gladly do so.


#35 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 07:03 PM

> there

> are some that would gladly do so.

Then they wouldn't be paladins for long.


#36 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 07:40 PM

> Oh well done! I've not had time to comment much lately but wanted to let

> you know how much I've been enjoying this. I like the way you're having

> Vivi examine her beliefs and her world, particularly given her calling.

> The study sesson, her reaction to the book and her thoughts on her own

> life really draw me to her as a character. I'm rather eager to read more.

> :-)

Thanks! Unfortunately, there's only one more chapter of Vivi solo before I start introducing the other three characters. I hope they interest you as much as Vivi has.


#37 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 07:43 PM

> Nice chapter. Loved the ending. :-)

Thanks! And thanks for reading!


#38 Guest_Jaimevelasco_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 11:03 PM

> Then they wouldn't be paladins for long.

It would be the gods themselves that would strip them of their paladin powers Correct?


#39 Guest_Tenebrous_*

Posted 11 November 2002 - 11:12 PM

> It would be the gods themselves that would strip them of their paladin

> powers Correct?

Correct. And any god that didn't do such a thing wouldn't be a god that could sponsor paladins in the first place.


#40 Guest_Jaimevelasco_*

Posted 12 November 2002 - 06:28 AM

> Correct. And any god that didn't do such a thing wouldn't be a god that

> could sponsor paladins in the first place.

Mmmm. What if those paladins tortured people? (a little loaded question, because there was a debate here with Oryx if torture was an attitude for a paladin or not. Anyway I ask this only for clarification, because I don't want to debate with him again because he thinks torture is "not evil" so...)





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