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A small proposal (not a story)


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#21 Guest_zan_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 07:47 PM

> I just needed to say something about this. There is no need to get

> personal, LOL, and the commenting thingy IMHO isn't a 'scratch my back and

> I'll scratch yours' type-o-business. As we don't really know each other

> personally, I doubt anyone would take the not commenting as a dangerous

> insult...

forgive me: i am paranoid about accidentally insulting people since my involvement in the last character debate :)

i personally wouldn't take a lack of comment as an insult, and i think commenting shouldn't be done on an exchange basis. but who am i to say how other people think? a complete nobody, that's who :)

> And I for one have found myself not commenting on stories I liked a lot,

> well, because there was nothing more to say and I am very seldom given to

> praise (although it's been known to happen now and then, LOL). The lack of

> comment to a story therefore does not (and should not *angry growl*) imply

> that the story is bad or that it is disliked.

a very good point, and one i missed. there have been stories here which i've enjoyed, but just haven't had time to comment on - yeah, i could fire off a "great job!", but that wouldn't satisfy me. it's a bit of a contradiction - whilst i'd be happy with such a message myself, i feel that when commenting i ought to say *what* i liked, and why. english lit training, perhaps...or just some weird quirk :)

> Everyone with courage enough to post, weather thick skinned or not,is

> giving a piece of themselfs, and they should receive a big cheer rather

> than wait breathlessly for someone else to validate their work. Or so

> methinks.

well said...though, as Nyx commented, easier said than done :(

zan


#22 Guest_zan_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 07:51 PM

> Drizzt is a hugely popular character, and he is the most Mary Sue of all

> Mary Sues ever known to man or beast...

Drizzt...i really, really can't answer that one :) save to say, you either love him or entirely despise him...

> The point I'm trying to make is that a list of literary no-nos is not only

> not necessary, but that one cannot be devised, because there is no such

> thing as a literary no-no.

very true, and a very relevant point. But: the authors you name are some of the acknowledged giants of literature. Extremely, extremely talented people, even if one doesn't personally care for their work. They only succeeded in breaking the rules because they were consciously aware they were doing so. it was a deliberate element of their style, rather than a flaw born of ignorance. and i know it's possible to argue that the distinction isn't truly one at all, and that only the end result matters....but i think you need to know the rules and conventions if you're to bend them successfully. otherwise, it's like stumbling blind.

...er, i ought to point out, i'm not actually fervently in favour of the proposed thread. i just really like to talk about these things :)

zan



#23 Laufey

Posted 05 November 2002 - 08:03 PM

> i wouldn't call it "chaotic", as such. not even

> rebellious...because that implies something to rebel *against*. such a

> thread would by no means be compulsory reading, after all - if someone

> didn't want to read it, they could just not click on it :) it would simply

> be there for those who were interested in the content. and, as Joe G made

> clear, the content would be entirely subjective - one person might think

> one thing, and another might contradict them entirely. it's up to the

> reader to draw benefits from such diverse opinions, and edit out those

> they disagree with.

> and diversity is the key, here :) I don't think Joe was proposing a hard

> and fast set of rules, or some dominant clique deciding what is and what

> isn't correct. that's why there would be nothing to be suspicious or

> rebellious towards - it would simply be a diverse collection of opinions,

> which one could chose to read or ignore at one's own leisure :)

I see your point, and I know that this is what Joe G was suggesting. However, I still fear that many people, particularly newbies, might *interpret* it as a set of rules that must be followed, and that that might put them off. Communication can be a very tricky thing sometimes, particularly since not everybody here is a native English speaker. Personally, I still feel direct comments is the best way to offer advice.

And as for commenting, there I also follow no rules, same as you. :( No comment from me doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's a bad story, it could mean that I was simply too tired. Same for how long my comments are, that also depends on what I feel like at the moment. The exception is if the writer *specifically* asks for opinions on a certain part of the story, then I usually try to offer them.


In The Cards
Rogues do it from behind.

#24 Guest_Nyx_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 08:03 PM

> ...er, i ought to point out, i'm not actually fervently in favour of the

> proposed thread. i just really like to talk about these things :)

I am fervently in favor of knowing what he's thinking. ;D If the thread doesn't get done I'm inclined to email poor Joe and ask directly anyway, lol. :)

-Nyx


Parallel Journeys - Nyx's Archive And St

#25 Guest_Strange_Girl_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 08:14 PM

Ah, I had a feeling this subject would come up again soon :)

A long time ago, there was the critique thread, that people started adding to their stories to indicate that they'd like a more thourough review, and later on the beta reader list (it's there to be used, people!:)) appeard, as the result of discussions about commenting.

> Note: Before I start, I will say that everything I write is IMHO and not

> meant to offend anyone. I'm trying not to sound preachy or anything, but

> it is possible I'll come across that way if I go ahead with the plan I

> detail below. I shouldn't be writing this.

Why not? It would be a sad thing if this place was so intimidating that people didn't dare speak their mind.

Now, about the things you proposed... I'm really in two minds about it (as usual). Yes, it is difficult to review someones story and tell them that you don't like something they've written, since it may make them think you got something against them or hurt their self-esteem. People are different, and some may react strongly to something another will not (and like I told someone else, I think it is helpful to the reader/potential reviewer if the writer gives some kind of indication about what type of comments they want). But I don't think a thread of writing tips could ever replace the individual critique, or that we should sort of "collect" the things we don't like about stories and post it in one place. It could end up just making people wonder if it's their story that is being talked about.

The thing is that I would really prefer that people tell me directly when they don't like something about my story, or find errors in it, or just has thoughts about how something in it could be improved. I never take offence at people for doing that, I'm grateful when someone takes the time to go through it that thouroughly, and I assume others feel that way too.

> So, to sum up: I propose a thread that will be an open list of general

> writing tips, particularly of traps that people fall into, for writers to

> keep in mind.

I think a list of GENERAL writing tips and advice from the locals, is a great idea. But... it may be a good idea to make sure it's clear that it's about the contributor's subjective opinions on writing and not some kind of key to how everyone should write.

S_G


Strange Girl's Stories

#26 Guest_Anonymous_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 08:17 PM

> I see your point, and I know that this is what Joe G was suggesting.

> However, I still fear that many people, particularly newbies, might

> *interpret* it as a set of rules that must be followed, and that that

> might put them off.

U kidding me? I'm not exactly new, but I'm not very old either, so Joe set me on fire this morning...Since my story is waaaaaaaay off topic, and I do have strong personal feelings towards Rilstra, my poor poor friends on the MDES mailing list got a surprise quiz on 'Name three Rilstra major flaws. Answers must be in by noon.' LOL



#27 Leo

Posted 05 November 2002 - 09:08 PM

It seems we've got a bit of confusion, mostly stemming from different understandings of the word "critique." I've been following this thread with great interest. This message is as good to respond to as any. Let me try. :)

> 1) A lot of authors here already put "I am so nervious to post

> it..." tag on their stories and this is a very friendly place - do

> you want them to refuse to post at all? FEELINGS OF A LIVING PERSON ARE

> HUNDRED TIMES MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

True enough. But it all depends on what you understand by critique, and how it is formulated, too.

> 2) BG LENDS itself to MS-types, and that IS a legitimate case of using MS,

> PC is in many cases an alter-ego and is a demi-god

On the contrary, the BG setting is a concrete-and-iron defense against the Mary Sue syndrome. The protagonist's very birth immediately creates a conflict within his or her soul, offering them something to fight within themselves.

> 3) A perefectly good way to critisize is to stay silent and not to respond

> to the post

I beg to differ. You assume that critiquing means offering a negative opinion. I have a different definition. Offering advice on how to improve the story. Staying silent does nothing of the sort.

That said, I must add that the way the critique is formulated does weigh heavily in how the author might see it.

> 4) What one might not like another person might enjoy greatly

True. However, that another person might enjoy it even better if some valuable device is offered and followed. The story might be good in general, but have a few easily correctable flaws. It would be enjoyable, yes, but not because of those flaws; rather, despite them.

> 5) I do not think anyone is blind to their own faults, because everyone

> can read and compare the stories and learn from each other and each others

> mistakes. If one cannot notice his/her own problem, one most likely would

> ignore it/become defensive if it is brought to his/her attention by

> another

Trust me, not a single story is published without having been thoroughly critiqued first by the author's peers. There is not a single author who always see their own mistakes.

> 6) The goal here is to have fun, not to become a writer, even if some

> people here are quite capable of doing stories way better than

> "professional".

True enough. And that is why we need to find a balance between encouraging new writers and thorough critique for those who are ready for it. Not an easy task, I say. That's why we need more of your opinions.

I'm glad this discussion has started. I've been of a mind to raise this issue one of these days, but Joe beat me to it. :)

Leo


#28 Guest_Domi_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 09:29 PM

Attic is an internet community.

Internet means that we do not really know each other (at least the majority of us). If I sit face to face with a person, I know darn well, that I'd rather say something about what is the most attractive in his/her work right now, and on another day I can point out what I do not like. Internet does not give such a feeling.

It is up to a person wether to provide a negative feedback or not. It is up to a person to be polite or to be blunt. I have seen the mildest of mildest comments to trigger an unfortunate reaction. What if someone's post will turn into a battlefield?

Only few days ago I posted a small essay at another site and I got a 3-page long mail proving to me that I am an ignorant fool, unworthy of reading or writing since my opinion differes from the opinion of the author's letter. If I knew ANYONE react like that I'd never posted it. I care not for my self-expression if a living bleeding person feels THAT hurt by my words about a bunch of fictional characters.

The list posted to the right from the Attic's Creed WOULD be an official Attic document. It will duplicate in part the advice on how to provide feedback, which actually DO point out the common flaws in writing.

Attic's Code of Conduct states that we respect each other. Posting a story on Attic I always re-read the Creed and check with myself if I respected the clauses. And respect to others includes not posting what the author him/herself consider crap.



#29 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 09:49 PM

Hmmm.

Good and bad points in the idea. While there indeed is no 'formula' for good writing, the list could be food for thought and suggestions rather than an intimidating set of rules and regulations.

On the other hand, I can just see people getting all paranoid ('is that addressed to me?'), and that the most clueless ones wouldn't still get the hint.

As for Mary-Sues, I agree completely. A Mary-Sue character is almost guaranteed to make me disinterested, especially if it seems to be therapy to the writer's own insecurities.

A related mistake IMO (I'm sure I have done it myself) is informing the reader of Mary-Sue's great traits (i.e. 'Mary-Sue is a very intelligent woman' and then her dialogue and thought processes sound like those of a moron) rather than letting her intelligence or other positive qualities show in how she thinks, and talks, what kind of decisions she makes.


Road of redemption

#30 Guest_CHuK'chSS'raGKH_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 09:51 PM

> Sometimes writers—even professional writers—will include a character in a

> story that I feel is uninteresting and detracts from the quality. Commonly

> known as a Mary Sue, this type of character often comes across as

> too-perfect (good-looking, smart, talented, powerful, and all-around

> better than everyone else—without ever having to sacrifice anything to

> achieve these things) with no real flaws. Every other character is often

> madly in love with the Mary Sue, and he/she tends to be an author's

> idealized self-image. Note that it would not be OK to start calling an

> Attic author's character a Mary Sue. In a case where you feel the need to

> give an example, please refer only 'real' books/stories (i.e. works of

> professional writers—anything that can be found in a bookstore is fair

> game).

Too perfect without sacrificing anything and no real flaws? Personally, I think there are too many flaws with that character if there are NO flaws what so ever. I don't think my own characters are, as quoted, Mary Sue, but I might be wrong. Every one of my characters have some sort of weakness somewhere. My current characters, for example...

Robert-fast but not too strong. Agile, but he can get hit. Strong attacks will get him down. A weakness might be that he is too emotional and he is merciful with his enemies.

Eril-Strong, but not fast nor is he too agile. Basically, fast attacks may bring him down.

Relsi-Smart, powerful, even attractive but her weakness is that she leaves herself vulnerable too often. Often depends on others to protect her. Also too emotional and is more likely to be merciful.

Kelli-Fast but weak. Smart. If she is reminded of anything tragic in her life, it may weaken her. Being an archer, she does not like getting into melee which is her weak point. Often acts like a crazed loony.

Geric-Often stays hidden in the dark. Broad daylight would be among his weaknesses. Dislikes people who can actually get ahead of him in the game of cat and mouse.

> I have a lot more to say than the universal “Mary Sues=bad” rule, a lot of

> which is pretty much BG-specific, and I'm hoping I'm not the only one. I

> am eager to start, but I thought I should ask the opinions of fellow

> Attic-goers. Would there be a problem with this if it were done in a civil

> manner that didn't single anyone out, but just addressed general

> 'problems'? Or does it sound like a divisive, unhelpful thing that I

> should just forget about?

Personally, I WANT to know if there is any flaws (or any lacking of) in my characters. If you want to single me out, please do. Otherwise, it will be unhelpful to me.

> Hope this whole thing made sense instead of coming across as a series of

> disjointed ramblings. Opinions on this would be most welcome.

Opinions on my stories tend to be welcome.

If you find any flaw, or lack there of, in my characters, please tell me.

Fiery Fury


#31 Guest_CHuK'chSS'raGKH_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:01 PM

> That's one of the things that distressed me about the idea that one votes

> by not commenting; how does the writer know whether the lack of feedback

> means "wow, your work is good but I have nothing to say" or

> "that was so bad that I'd better keep my mouth shut"? I've done

> the no comments on great work thing too, you know? Sometimes I just don't

> have any words.

*Turns red* Uh...I have actually wondered that the lacking of feedback meant that the people reading didn't like it, doesn't have any comments but think it's great (I tend to be like that), is too busy to respond (I'm like this, too), or etc., the list could go on, but I do not feel like writing much more then that.

Fiery Fury-who likes feedback with his stories :)



#32 Guest_CHuK'chSS'raGKH_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:08 PM

> It is up to a person wether to provide a negative feedback or not. It is

> up to a person to be polite or to be blunt. I have seen the mildest of

> mildest comments to trigger an unfortunate reaction. What if someone's

> post will turn into a battlefield?

Um...I haven't confused a helping hand as an insult, um...of course not! (You stupid morron! You even asked for the help! Stupid, stupid Fiery Fury! Stupid!)

Fiery Fury-(Stupid, stupid Fiery Fury)


#33 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:15 PM

> 1) A lot of authors here already put "I am so nervious to post

> it..." tag on their stories and this is a very friendly place - do

> you want them to refuse to post at all? FEELINGS OF A LIVING PERSON ARE

> HUNDRED TIMES MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

Usually people get encouragement and friendly response if they tell they are nervous. I know I did. But if even constructive criticism (which I think is advice or suggestions on how we could improve our writing) hurts a person's feelings, I think they are being too sensitive. It is also always an option to say that only praise is wanted...

I do agree that such a list could be too intimidating, but if it could be taken as just suggestions or ideas, it wouldn't be that bad.

> 2) BG LENDS itself to MS-types, and that IS a legitimate case of using MS,

> PC is in many cases an alter-ego and is a demi-god

No-one wants to deny people of writing Mary-Sue or enjoying such, but I think it is worth pointing out that it is not the best way to make believable characterization and a main character to identify with. At least that is my opinion.

Also, I don't agree about BG. It is quite possible to write a demi-god powerful character with flaws and faults.

> 3) A perefectly good way to critisize is to stay silent and not to respond

> to the post

That certainly doesn't help the author to improve the text. Also, as others have said, there are several reasons not to comment - nothing specific to add, too tired, no time, not really followed a long serial, the text sucks and you don't want to insult, the text doesn't suck, but you find it morally too disturbing to comment on...

and we all must want some sort of reaction - otherwise we wouldn't post these stories on public site. Here we have no idea what the people thought.

> 4) What one might not like another person might enjoy greatly

True, but all criticism should be taken with a grain of salt. I listen to all criticism and suggestions, but make up my own mind whether I agree or not.

> 5) I do not think anyone is blind to their own faults, because everyone

> can read and compare the stories and learn from each other and each others

> mistakes.

Disagree. I think we are blind especially to our own faults. All published texts go through a lot of rewriting and reviewing and editing.

> If one cannot notice his/her own problem, one most likely would

> ignore it/become defensive if it is brought to his/her attention by

> another

I find such an attitude immature, if the criticism is politely and constructively put.

> 6) The goal here is to have fun, not to become a writer, even if some

> people here are quite capable of doing stories way better than

> "professional".

Hmmm, for me part of the fun is improving, and personally I actually do want to become a writer. I also enjoy Attic because of the high quality and mature and friendly atmosphere.

From what I hear there are plenty of sites where no feedback except praise is given.

I'm not sure how much of my comments are about criticism in general or the list suggestion. However, they apply to both.


Road of redemption

#34 Guest_Jaimevelasco_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:22 PM

> I see your point, and I know that this is what Joe G was suggesting.

> However, I still fear that many people, particularly newbies, might

> *interpret* it as a set of rules that must be followed, and that that

> might put them off. Communication can be a very tricky thing sometimes,

> particularly since not everybody here is a native English speaker.

Well, I am maybe the one with lest knowledge of english (Edwin's Laufey romance :) ). But I would think anybody that lurks in a fiction forum, can at least know enough english to understand IF it's clearly shown that they are just some free advice, not a rigit set of obligatory rules.

Other fiction places have also that kind of help.



#35 Laufey

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:26 PM

> Well, I am maybe the one with lest knowledge of english (Edwin's Laufey

> romance :) ). But I would think anybody that lurks in a fiction forum, can

> at least know enough english to understand IF it's clearly shown that they

> are just some free advice, not a rigit set of obligatory rules.

> Other fiction places have also that kind of help.

Possibly I am being too pessimistic. I hope so. And as I've said, I'm all for critique and comments, as long as they're not presented as more than the personal opinions they are. It's a fine line to walk sometimes.


In The Cards
Rogues do it from behind.

#36 Guest_Domi_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:37 PM

> Usually people get encouragement and friendly response if they tell they

> are nervous. I know I did. But if even constructive criticism (which I

> think is advice or suggestions on how we could improve our writing) hurts

> a person's feelings, I think they are being too sensitive.

As I said timing is all. Sensitivity changes. Besides every time I see a comment with add-ons like: "Oh, I know I am rude, but that's how I am, sorry"...

It is also

> always an option to say that only praise is wanted...

> I do agree that such a list could be too intimidating, but if it could be

> taken as just suggestions or ideas, it wouldn't be that bad.

Non-intimidating list already exists in "the art of critique" on this site.

> No-one wants to deny people of writing Mary-Sue or enjoying such, but I

> think it is worth pointing out that it is not the best way to make

> believable characterization and a main character to identify with. At

> least that is my opinion.

> Also, I don't agree about BG. It is quite possible to write a demi-god

> powerful character with flaws and faults.

Which do not guarantee per se the high quality of the story. Alesha Karamazov is the perfect man on another hand.

> That certainly doesn't help the author to improve the text. Also, as

> others have said, there are several reasons not to comment - nothing

> specific to add, too tired, no time, not really followed a long serial,

> the text sucks and you don't want to insult, the text doesn't suck, but

> you find it morally too disturbing to comment on...

Sure, nothing is obligatory. The silence is not equal to negative reaction.

> Disagree. I think we are blind especially to our own faults. All published

> texts go through a lot of rewriting and reviewing and editing.

> I find such an attitude immature, if the criticism is politely and

> constructively put.

What if not? What if it was undeserved or is on the matter of personal preference? For example critising the way author sees a certain NPC?

> Hmmm, for me part of the fun is improving, and personally I actually do

> want to become a writer. I also enjoy Attic because of the high quality

> and mature and friendly atmosphere.

> From what I hear there are plenty of sites where no feedback except praise

> is given.

> I'm not sure how much of my comments are about criticism in general or the

> list suggestion. However, they apply to both.



#37 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:54 PM

> As I said timing is all. Sensitivity changes. Besides every time I see a

> comment with add-ons like: "Oh, I know I am rude, but that's how I

> am, sorry"...

Well, that is not really constructive or polite, I'd say. That is my criteria to acceptable criticism.

> Non-intimidating list already exists in "the art of critique" on

> this site.

So perhaps there could be a similar list 'suggestions about writing from Atticers'?

> Which do not guarantee per se the high quality of the story.

Of course not. If A in my opinion makes a story suck, the author may not commit A, but still the story can still suck for number of other reasons.

> Alesha

> Karamazov is the perfect man on another hand.

It's been so long since I read Brothers Karamazov that I really don't remember.

> What if not? What if it was undeserved or is on the matter of personal

> preference?

'Undeserved polite and constructive criticism'? I have hard time picturing what that could be. On the other hand, many things are a matter of personal preference, and the author has to just make up his/her mind about whether to pay heed.

> For example critising the way author sees a certain NPC?

Well, if the characterization is internally inconsistent or unbelievable within that story, I say I would love to know. If, on the other hand someone wants to tell me that I am a spawn of satan because portray their favourite character in a light they don't like, I feel that I can easily ignore that sort of criticism - which IMO doesn't count as constructive or necessarily even polite.


Road of redemption

#38 Guest_Nyx_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 11:03 PM

> What if not? What if it was undeserved or is on the matter of personal

> preference? For example critising the way author sees a certain NPC?

I'll go on record right now as saying that anyone who wants to criticize my view of NPCs is welcome to do so, with the caveat that I'm likely to respond with my reasonings and the evidence/game events/realmslore/whatever that is the basis of my viewpoints, and that such things tend to turn into great big discussions.

I enjoy having my views challenged; it helps me rethink things, see them from outside my own biases and perspectives, occasionally changes my mind, and always strengthens my position, whether it changes or not. Maybe I didn't know a piece of trivia that puts an entirely different perspective on things. Maybe I never thought about a dialogue in the context the other person did. Either way, I'd love to hear about it.

Sarevok is the closest NPC to my heart, and I feel very very strongly about his personality/history/relationships/etc... but even so, I've had lots of fascinating debates/discussions with a variety of people (all of whom disagreed with me to at least some degree) about him. Sometimes I ended up adjusting my interpretation, sometimes not, but it was interesting either way.

Further, anyone who wants to criticize me on a matter of personal preference can go ahead too; if people can't read evil characters, I'd like to know why. If they can't stand unhappy endings, I'd like to know that too. If they think I'm an NPC butcher, I'd love to hear why it bothers them that I kill NPCs sometimes.

If nothing else, it's just good trivia.

-Nyx


Parallel Journeys - Nyx's Archive And St

#39 Guest_Silrana_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 11:11 PM

Just to pass along something interesting, here are some points from an "advice for fanfic writers" site. Thanks to Darkrose for posting the link in her journal. I am not posting all of them, because many deal with 'adult' stories or genres so different from D&D that the advice wouldn't apply.

1. Pointless synonyms for "to say." There are times when it's important to let us know that a character asked, or replied, or shrieked, or giggled, but a good writer can, more often than not, imply this in the dialogue. Nobody will mind if you use "said" over and over; they will mind even less if you eliminate attribution tags altogether when it's clear who's speaking. What your readers will mind is the word "utter" every three paragraphs.

4. If you can't spell key words in the following phrases right, then don't use them: "piqued his interest" (not "peeked" or "peaked"); "loath to admit" (not "loathe"); "lose his virginity" (not "loose"); "toe the line" (not "tow"); "waver in her affections" (not "waiver"). Also, you're not allowed to talk about anyone's prostate gland if you spell it "prostrate." Sacrifices and some marriages take place at altars (not "alters"), and when you quote something, you're citing it (not "sighting" or "siting"). I know your spell-check program doesn't catch these. As my dad would say, that's an explanation, but not an excuse. If you agree with me, say "hear, hear," not "here, here."

6. "Orbs," when used to refer to someone's eyes. Super mega negative points for "shimmering blue orbs," or similar. If you're talking about an orb in fanfic, it had better be a DS9 story, and you'd better be talking about a mystical object from the Prophets that gives people visions. Okay, okay, in deference to OdoGoddess, one "orbs" per story. Use it wisely.

7. Redundancies. The phrase, "the reason is because," is taking years off my life. "It's because..." and "The reason is..." are both suitable replacements for that phrase (I'm not typing it again), and therein lies the problem. Redundancy begets wordiness, and it makes you sound like you aren't choosing your words carefully. Other common offenders include "he thought to himself" (exceptions granted for stories about telepaths) and "very unique" (either it's unlike anything else, or it's like something else-- there's no middle ground).

8. Homerian epithets should be used with caution. I know what you're trying to do with stuff like "the taller man," "the blue-eyed woman," and "the hornier Cardassian": slash creates problems with pronouns, and you're trying to differentiate among your characters. Once in a while, this kind of phrase is okay, especially if you're trying to conceal something about the character to whom you're referring. However, using a lot of them sounds goofy and also gets confusing; if you use multiple epithets for the same character, it starts to sound like there's an awful lot of guys in the room. It's okay to repeat proper names a lot, if you're trying to avoid confusing pronouns. Like "said," those tend to fade into the background.

11. Wanton contradiction of canon details. I mean, unless you're writing a radical AU. I'm not talking about the big stuff. For example, Dan and Casey share one office, one desk, and one computer. Cordelia's nickname is Cordy. So why am I reading so many Sports Night stories in which the boys each have their own desk, and so many Angel stories in which everyone's talking about someone named Delia?

12. Apostrophes are delicate beasts, so be careful to avoid mistreatment. They are useful for making possessives (Garak's shop, the vampires' teeth, Picard and Q's red hot monkey lovin') and for writing contractions (see #44 below). On the other hand, they are not useful for making plurals. Ever. Okay, with one exception: when making plurals of letters, as in "mind your p's and q's" or "no, really, guys, there are no y's in Troi's name." Other than that, a simple s, es, or ies will suffice. Really. Trust me.

14. Weird punctuation conventions for inner dialogue. {*{*{*{This looks really dumb, trust me.}*}*}*} I know of at least one mailing list archivist who is slowly going crazy because people use triangular brackets to mark inner dialogue, and they screw up the HTML. Try to work a character's thoughts into the narrative in such a way that you don't need to use ornate orthography. If you absolutely can't (and this is sometimes the case), use single quotes (apostrophes), single asterisks, underscore dashes (_these things_), or (if it's on a webpage) italics.

15. Works in progress. Do us all a favor and finish the damn thing before you post it. And while you're at it, run spellcheck and find a beta, preferably someone who is a better writer than you.

18. Misspelled character names. I'm slightly surprised that this problem even exists. I know that spell-checking software isn't so good with proper names, but nearly every TV show and film has an official site, or at least a comprehensive fan site, with a list of correctly-spelled character names. If you're enough of a fan to make up stories about the characters, then you're enough of a fan to get their names right. Here's a few to get you started: Elim Garak. Wesley Wyndham-Pryce. Natalie Hurley. Luka Kovac. Kira Nerys.

21. If you have to tell us in the headers whose POV it is, then there's a weakness in your story. Either change it to the third person, or strengthen your narrative voice so it's clear who's talking. Stories with POV deception are great-- that's not the issue here. If you want your readers to know who's talking, build that into your story, not into your headers.

22. Long, unwieldy chains of verbs. Some writers seem to think that using more words makes them sound more literate; in reality, it just makes them sound clunky and verbose. Doesn't "He started to move towards the bed" sound better as "He walked towards the bed"? Yeah, thought so. If you're Michael Stipe, you're allowed to get away with "I think I thought I saw you try," but you're not Michael Stipe, and you know it.

24. Due to. It's a perfectly good phrase for legal briefs, but it sounds stilted in fiction. And "due to" can always be replaced by the more natural "because of." The worst offenders in this category are those who use "due to" with the gerund: "Due to having to patrol, Buffy was often sleepy in class." Ew. Rephrase with "because" before I find a heavy, blunt object. "Because Buffy had to patrol, she was often sleepy in class." Ahh. Better.

25. Overediting. Wanting to fix one's grammar and mechanics is a good thing, but don't suck out all the style. This is especially a problem when it comes to dialogue, because very few people speak with perfect Strunk and White grammar. There are stories out there in which no one utters a contraction, and many or all of the characters are not Data. It's a good thing to occasionally-- occasionally--- start a sentence with a conjunction, or leave a sentence fragment, or use a colloquialism. Dangling prepositions and split infinitives often sound better than the alternative. If you know the rules of proper English, that gives you license to break them when style warrants it.

28. Gerunds that don't agree with their pronouns. Gerunds, otherwise known as -ing verbs, can behave like nouns, which makes them useful buggers. But for goodness' sake, people. Possessive plus gerund. "Spike could no longer put up with Xander's whining." The following would be wrong: "Spike could no longer put up with Xander whining." I mean, doesn't that sound off, now that you've read the correct sentence? You know it does.

30. "A lot" is always always always always always always always two words. Always.

32. Passive voice. English teachers tend to harp on this one, because it's easy to overuse. There are times in journalistic and scholarly writing when the passive voice is necessary, but there are very few such times in fiction. Sentences that use the active voice sound smoother and more direct: "Tara's toes were sucked by Willow" sounds like Willow is performing a medical procedure, while "Willow sucked Tara's toes" keeps us right in the action. It's also two words shorter; passive voice is almost always needlessly wordy.

34. "Out of character." As in, "Weaver was friendly in a way that was out of character for her." This phrase is a sign. It is a sign in the way that a Construction Ahead sign in Japan is a sign, in that it involves many arrows, flashing lights, and little old ladies in reflective vests waving glowsticks. If someone's behavior is "out of character" enough that you need to mention it, this is a problem. Why? Because it's out of character. Fidelity to characterization is important in fanfic; if your character is doing something "out of character," don't note it in the text, change the way the character behaves so that she is doing something in character. Besides, it's a clunky phrase. And no, "uncharacteristically" doesn't make it any better.

35. Ellipses. You know, those three little dots that show there's something missing, and make a sentence seem to trail off. Ellipses do have uses in fiction, especially in dialogue, but they should be used very sparingly. There are several writers around who use them at the end of nearly every sentence. This keeps their narrative from flowing naturally, as all their thoughts seem to float away into nothing... Sentences end. Let them. Limit yourself to one period per sentence.

(Silrana: Hehehe, I'm frequently guilty of this one.)

37. Really short paragraphs. I've read several stories lately in which the writer judged it necessary to start a new paragraph after each sentence (or sentence fragment) of narrative. I'm sure they were going for artistic and stark, but the result was more along the lines of choppy and repetitive. Every once in a while, a one- or two-sentence paragraph can drive home your point very sharply, and of course, you should start a new paragraph for every new line of dialogue. But overuse of very short paragraphs works a lot like ending every sentence with an exclamation point. Short paragraphs work as a form of emphasis, and if you use them too liberally, you end up not emphasizing much of anything at all.

(Silrana: On the flip side, incredibly long ones aren't any better.)

40. Sigh. Okay, kids, here we go. I was going to offer a whole detailed explanation of how to punctuate quotations correctly, but yeesh. I'm not a grammar manual, and I'm at the end of my rope. The short version: punctuation goes inside the quotation marks. New paragraph for each line of dialogue. Question marks and exclamation points don't turn into commas. Periods do, but only when they precede a tag that identifies the speaker. Sample sentence (distilled from the aforementioned deleted detailed explanation): "My shirt," Abby said, "looks good on you." I know it's complicated, but that's English.

41. Your unconventional grammar choices aren't creative license; they're bad grammar. There's quite a bit of leeway with this, of course: sentence fragments and comma splices can, in the right hands, be good writing. But one of the primary purposes of writing-- if not the primary purpose-- is communication, and if your mechanics are so bad or your word choices so strange that others can't understand them, you're not communicating. Also, any divergence from standard English usage should be a purposeful choice. If you use "gonna" because that's the word that you think your narrator would use, or you eschew quotation marks because you want to blur the distinction between thought and speech, then you've made a purposeful choice. It may or may not be a good choice, but at least you've thought about how your unconventional usage will affect the impact your story has on its readers. But using bad grammar because you can't be arsed, or because you think standard English looks funny on the page? Not cool, and not defensible.

44. They're. There. Their. It's. Its. Your. You're. Know them. Love them. Learn the difference.

(Silrana: I would also add- to, too, two. Weather, whether. Lose, loose.)

Let me repeat, these are quotes from a website, not my writing. If you would like to read the whole thing, the link is -

http://mosca.freeser...ic/witness.html



#40 Guest_Strange_Girl_*

Posted 05 November 2002 - 11:14 PM

> Internet means that we do not really know each other (at least the

> majority of us). If I sit face to face with a person, I know darn well,

> that I'd rather say something about what is the most attractive in his/her

> work right now, and on another day I can point out what I do not like.

> Internet does not give such a feeling.

That is true. Not seeing the person we talk to, makes this type of communication different, and difficult in many ways. I still think the same simple guideline applies though; to try and show other people the same courtesy and respect that I want them to show me.

> It is up to a person wether to provide a negative feedback or not. It is

> up to a person to be polite or to be blunt. I have seen the mildest of

> mildest comments to trigger an unfortunate reaction. What if someone's

> post will turn into a battlefield?

It is impossible to know in advance how someone will react. Like the thingy up on the top of the page says: we're all different. Our different backgrounds makes us express ourselves and percieve things differently, and that makes it easy for misunderstanings to occur. I don't think that not commenting is the solution to that, or that there's any way for someone who writes a comment to make absolutely sure the commentee is not offended. But on the recieving side, it may be a good idea for the one who gets the comment to give someone the benefit of doubt and assume that their comments are based on good intention, just formulated in a way that may be misunderstood. If nothing else, the one recieving the comment will then spare him/herself the feelings of indignation.

> Only few days ago I posted a small essay at another site and I got a

> 3-page long mail proving to me that I am an ignorant fool, unworthy of

> reading or writing since my opinion differes from the opinion of the

> author's letter. If I knew ANYONE react like that I'd never posted it. I

> care not for my self-expression if a living bleeding person feels THAT

> hurt by my words about a bunch of fictional characters.

When someone attack you as a person just because you stated an opinion that differed from theirs, I would say that they're the ones not respecting your feelings, not the other way around.

BUT, I know the feeling, and I've spent way too much time in my life keeping my mouth shut out of fear of offending other people because of experiences like yours. Things like that happens, sometimes someone takes another persons opinion as a personal insult even when there's no obvious reason for it. Please, don't let that discurage you from speaking your mind.

> The list posted to the right from the Attic's Creed WOULD be an official

> Attic document. It will duplicate in part the advice on how to provide

> feedback, which actually DO point out the common flaws in writing.

I think Joe's idea was more of a non-official list of suggestions, tips, opinions (even opposing ones) that everyone could contribute to. So it would probably be quite different from the Art of Critique.


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