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Writing Magic Questions?

Started by Guest_Blue-Inked_Frost_* , Aug 07 2011 04:54 PM

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#1 Guest_Blue-Inked_Frost_*

Posted 07 August 2011 - 04:54 PM

It's mystical, it's puissant, and who wouldn't like flinging fireballs out of their fingertips?

Magic with too many rules can stop being magical; magic without enough rules on can start being pure deus ex machina. Do you think of Forgotten Realms magic more as a tool, where it's interesting to compare and contrast detailed magical strategies, or as a mystical communication with a supernatural force, where detail of spellcasting is left out in favour of description of emotion and effect? What techniques do you use in your writing around magic? Do spell names strip away the mystique, or are they likely to be used by experts? How strictly do you apply the rules? What's the difference between divine and arcane magic?

With the strict Vancian magic rules of x-spells-per-day and scroll-learning and opposition-schools I think D&D in general makes it very easy to fall into writing magic in a way that can get boring in a story, because after all it's magic designed for a gaming system rather than magic designed for a novel. But exploitations and strategy of magic with rules can be interesting in their own right--like, say, the webcomic Erfworld on the limits of rules and innovative combinations. Physics really is just as hot as eldritch communion with etheric mysteries from beyond! Something of the mystical and sheer joy of practicing something like magic can be a lot of fun to read, perhaps especially with those writers using sorcerer characters or divine spellcasters. There's also the character in question: Aerie combines her arcane magic with divine, Edwin tends to come across as regimented and power-seeking more than interested in magic for its own sake, Xzar's world is probably a brightly coloured and very disturbing place, Anomen and Jaheira believe strongly in their respective deities...

Also, the unknown: since ghosts don't exist there are some truly creepy ghost/supernatural stories because ghosts are an inexplicable phenomenon to a story taking place on Earth. Finding the unknown and inexplicable and having that moment of frantically trying and failing to justify it by science is a great way to get horror, like the manga story The Enigma of Amigara Fault. But in the Realms, everyone 'knows' that a ghost is a spiritual imprint of some dearly departed floating around with some sort of definable goal, and to banish them call 1800-CLERIC or NECROMANCERS-R-US, and many also already 'know' that there's a multiverse out there with all sorts of weird creatures of undying death and too many tentacles. So what do you do about adding mystery?

How much fun do you have writing about magic and spellcasters? :)

Edited by Blue-Inked_Frost, 07 August 2011 - 04:56 PM.

#2 Weyoun

Posted 07 August 2011 - 09:32 PM

Hnm, on the subject of ghost, I'm not so sure that the fact that spectral creatures are somewhat common in the Realms detracts from the creepiness factor. Two things to keep in mind. One, even though they're somewhat common, there are so many different types of ghostly creatures (and not so ghostly ones) and they all do something different - and make no mistake, they can kill you. Secondly, despite the fact that they're somewhat common, you have to factor in the experiences of your characters. The average common Joe Orc will have only heard about ghosts from books, stories in the tavern, etc, and doesn't necessarily ever have encountered one. In that scenario there not much difference between a horror movie taking place in our world and a magic mystery involving Realmsian people.

Subsequently, a level 1 adventuring party will scare easier than a level 20 adventuring party which has been through the grinder before. A lot depends on the characters themselves - do they run from Casper or do they shoot fireballs in his friendly face? :)

As for writing magic, yeah you're right. Gaming systems themselves can be done horribly in writing, but it's all in how you do it. Look at these -

Example A

"Viconia cast 'Stun Person' on the bandit and bashed his brains in."

Simple, to the point, everybody knows what happens and it's also a bit boring.

Example B

"The bandit leered at the Drow in front of him, apparently helpless on the ground. This was his lucky day - judging from the woman's gear, she was quite rich. As he was about to rush her, the dark elven female turned her head and let out a sneer. Or, that was what it appeared to be. Instead, the Drow whispered words he did not understand, while her hands started to glow with an unnatural purple light. Too late he realized his mistake as the light shot out from her hands and hit him square in the chest. His limbs started to feel heavy as every muscle in his body stiffened. Fear gripped him by the throat as he soon lost control of himself and literally froze into place. The bandit wasn't even able to move his eyes as the Drow got to her feet and cocked her head sideways. He tried to scream, cry out, move his arms, anything... but to no avail.

'Better luck next time', he heard the Drow say in a throaty voice, pleasant if he wasn't in a state of panic. He could only watch helplessly as she raised her mace and brought down doom."

In this example, the bandit has no idea what's happening to him and the way it's written, you can sort imagine his terror. Now, look at it from another perspective.


Example C

"Viconia snarled in defiance as that filthy male dared approach her. He had taken her by surprise when he had knocked her down, but little did the male realize that she was far from helpless. No doubt he would make a grab for her coinpurse... and perhaps attempt to drag her off to a darker side of the alley to have his way. She would have to act quickly, but Viconia being Viconia, a plan had already taken shape in her mind. Quickly, she muttered he words of a simple spell, calling upon the power of her goddess to put this little man in his place. The pleasant tingly sensation arcane energy manifesting itself around her palms signified that her spell, and the hapless male's doom, was ready. Through the power of her considerable well, the energy shot out from her hands and slammed into the man's chest. As expected, the bandit froze in place, looking much like a very ugly garden statue. The tables being fully turned, Viconia took out her mace.

'Better luck next time,' the Drow smirked as she brought down her weapon to his forehead, silencing him forever.

As she watched his body bleed out, she noticed that the bandit also had a coinpurse. No doubt it contained today's haul. Viconia took it from his belt and weighed it in her hand. Pleased with this small windfall, Viconia left the alley and went in search of a proper inn."

This is basically three times the same thing from a different perspective. Example A is the pure basic. boring, yes, but in some circumstances, it can serve a purpose. Example B is from the perspective of a salt of the earth bandit who's probably never even seen a spell being cast in his life, while example C is from Viconia's perspective, an experienced spellcaster. Both have a very different perspective on what's happening. One should keep in mind when writing a character what his or her experience is with these supernatural happenstances. You'll end up with quite different story descriptions as a result.

Edited by Weyoun, 07 August 2011 - 09:46 PM.

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#3 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:30 PM

Do spell names strip away the mystique, or are they likely to be used by experts?


Yeah. That... that's one thing I find myself going back and forth with on a lot of occasions.

I can understand the latter viewpoint. i.e. that a professional wizard who's been formally trained may be inclined to refer to spells by their "formalized" names, much like, say, a doctor would use a lot of accepted medical terminology in a conversation with a colleague or whatever. It makes sense. To them, magic isn't "magic." It's not something mystifying and strange and obscure, it's simply a tool that they've spent lots of time studying and thus have command over. There's no mystique, there.

But just like filling a story's dialogue with loads of techno-jargon (whether it be medical lingo or military lingo) can make things extremely jarring for a reader, having your characters treat a conversation about spells and magic like "Just another day at the office - oh, did you hear? We had an orc infestation a while back, but I knew they were coming because I had Detect Evil up at the time, and so I was able to set up a few Delayed Blast Fireballs. for when they started charging through the door way. Made quite the mess. They stacked up in the entrance foyer, and I dropped an Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting on them? Ha! Overkill on orcs, I know, but I never get to use the fun stuff these days."

It just... does not read well to me. And I remember a writer who absolutely insisted on handling spells/magic that way. It grated on my nerves. Worse, it bled over into other characters, as well. It's one thing if the mage himself/herself refers to spells using just their "technical" names, (even though that makes the whole thing sound like a tabletop gaming session and brings up 4th wall-breaking issues.) but it's another if non-mage characters are using the same technical "jargon" and worse still if that bleeds over into "I don't feel like describing the spell, so I'm just going to drop the name since you as readers have seen it a billion times before and know what I mean when I say 'Prismatic Spray' and put it italics."

#4 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 10 August 2011 - 02:57 PM

I have a gut feeling that the fact that there is a rule system for magic in FR makes for a stigma for using the technical terms. "Oh, now the writer's writing about game rules." I don't entirely avoid it, but I try to make it subtle or at least restricted to where experts really would use them.

In a world of my own I'm developing, I have a difficulty figuring out what to do with magic, because I don't really know what its rules are and its basis is. I have some ideas, but it hasn't come together yet. It's the same problem I have elsewhere: my ideas aren't really about the cosmology, but not knowing the cosmology grates me. What I feel is, how can I know things like that about the real world but not one I'm making up?

#5 Guest_Jeannette_*

Posted 10 August 2011 - 04:35 PM

I have a gut feeling that the fact that there is a rule system for magic in FR makes for a stigma for using the technical terms. "Oh, now the writer's writing about game rules." I don't entirely avoid it, but I try to make it subtle or at least restricted to where experts really would use them.

In a world of my own I'm developing, I have a difficulty figuring out what to do with magic, because I don't really know what its rules are and its basis is. I have some ideas, but it hasn't come together yet. It's the same problem I have elsewhere: my ideas aren't really about the cosmology, but not knowing the cosmology grates me. What I feel is, how can I know things like that about the real world but not one I'm making up?


It is a challenge at times to write about magic for this reason. I dont' spend a lot of time on rules these days and at times it's hard to remember. I do look things up but still...

In a way, I think using magical terms is much like writing about any other kind of profession. A conversation between two doctors is going to include medical terms, a conversation be lawyers will include legal terms. And at times doctors and lawyers talking to lay people will use technical terms although usually not without explaining what they mean. So it would make sense for magical practioners to use technical terms while talking with each other although less likely or appropriate while talking with a lay person.

For myself, I tend to be distracted by overly length descriptions - purple prose - in describing the effects of a spell. I become impatient and find myself starting to mentally edit. (yeah...I know).

In regards to writing, I also try not to become overly trapped by rules. Not that rules for grammar etc aren't good things; after all a poorly written piece is distracting and hard to follow. It's just that rules become rigid if we're not careful. I remember reading excerpts from a talk C.J. Cherryh gave at a writer's workshop about the "rules of writing" and her comment that while rules were fine things in general, her own rule was "never to follow a rule off a cliff;" that rules - that there were many times when breaking the rule made sense in the context of the sentence, paragraph or story. ;)

I

#6 Guest_nazlan_*

Posted 10 August 2011 - 04:51 PM

For me, what the magic does is more important than how it gets there. So I tend to gloss over the boring stuff like incantations, spell components and names(:D) to focus on what you can do with it once you've got it.

#7 Laufey

Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:33 AM

Rules, eh? I tend to think of them more as 'guidelines'. Arrr.

Anyway, as others have already said, for me it depends very much on both whose pov I'm currently using, and what the context is. Certainly Edwin would be more inclined to use technical terms than Minsc would, for example. It also depends a bit on what spell I'm describing, I dare say that even a very 'non magic savvy' person would recognize a Fireball, for example. That doesn't mean I would never describe said Fireball in more detail though, if I feel it adds to the scene I would do so.
Rogues do it from behind.

#8 Guest_Blue-Inked_Frost_*

Posted 14 August 2011 - 12:43 PM

This is basically three times the same thing from a different perspective. Example A is the pure basic. boring, yes, but in some circumstances, it can serve a purpose. Example B is from the perspective of a salt of the earth bandit who's probably never even seen a spell being cast in his life, while example C is from Viconia's perspective, an experienced spellcaster. Both have a very different perspective on what's happening. One should keep in mind when writing a character what his or her experience is with these supernatural happenstances. You'll end up with quite different story descriptions as a result.


I liked your examples. :) The character is the most important aspect, especially if it's a deep limited point of view.

But just like filling a story's dialogue with loads of techno-jargon (whether it be medical lingo or military lingo) can make things extremely jarring for a reader, having your characters treat a conversation about spells and magic like "Just another day at the office - oh, did you hear? We had an orc infestation a while back, but I knew they were coming because I had Detect Evil up at the time, and so I was able to set up a few Delayed Blast Fireballs. for when they started charging through the door way. Made quite the mess. They stacked up in the entrance foyer, and I dropped an Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting on them? Ha! Overkill on orcs, I know, but I never get to use the fun stuff these days."


I remember a fic on FF.Net which goes into game-technical explanations that in some cases were probably just impossible to make believable in a novelistic context--things like And this spell will not work upon fighters who have mastered martial arts to the ninth dan; to thieves who have the ability to run their own guild; and/or to assassins who have killed at least one wizard capable of casting spells of the fifth circle. How does that form of magic tell, again? But in general it did phrase its exposition in a way that sounded interesting and gave a feeling of worldbuilding, and on the whole it's a really good fic with even the Minsc/Willow/Tara threesome very well written.

I have a gut feeling that the fact that there is a rule system for magic in FR makes for a stigma for using the technical terms. "Oh, now the writer's writing about game rules." I don't entirely avoid it, but I try to make it subtle or at least restricted to where experts really would use them.


I cringe each time I find myself using the nouns 'strength' or 'dexterity' in case of referring to the character statistics. Mind you, sometimes I still don't use the thesaurus to stop myself. ;) Terms that sound like technical terms probably should only be used by characters in the know; terms that are borderline can depend on the writer/reader.

In a world of my own I'm developing, I have a difficulty figuring out what to do with magic, because I don't really know what its rules are and its basis is. I have some ideas, but it hasn't come together yet. It's the same problem I have elsewhere: my ideas aren't really about the cosmology, but not knowing the cosmology grates me. What I feel is, how can I know things like that about the real world but not one I'm making up?


Sometimes these things can come gradually, while you're writing them. Different styles work for different people, but sometimes getting to a story point where a cosmological issue would naturally arise can help decide on how that issue sorts itself out. Or there's character-immersion and what specific characters in the world would think and know about the places and mysteries that surround them--that helps me.

Rules, eh? I tend to think of them more as 'guidelines'. Arrr.


Stick to the rules. Characters should have hitpoints instead of nasty bleeding all over the place, mages should carry elven-carved ivory dice to judge their spells hitting, and instead of writing descriptions we should encourage readers to consult the d20 SRD if they wish to know more spell effect information. :P

#9 Guest_VigaHrolf_*

Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:44 PM

I think that one of the most important things with magic is that you remain consistent within your 'internal canon'. No one is going to mind variations on a theme of spells so long as that variation flows across the spectrum. The same is true for the spell effects and powers - so long as you stay true to an internal mechanic, yo don't always need to 'show your work', just the effect and if you're consistent, people tend to buy it.

As to the descriptions, my personal style is to vary the descriptions based on the character in question. I tend to try to describe the magic as the narrator at that moment would. A non spell caster would talk about what they can feel in a sensory way (unless you've got a lot of experience with spells) Spell casters themselves would have a much different perspective, just like a doctor or a lawyer or a tech has about their specific profession. The internal head piece could get very technical, depending on the character and how they interact with the magic. But the dialogue, unless it was between spell flingers, would probably be very jargon light. Divine powers - well, those I think are probably the most personal as you are using faith and divine power to go heal or blow someone up.

#10 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:06 PM

If you guys saw that Dragon Age Baldur's Gate thing in the other forum a while ago, the one with the intro scene on entering Waukeen's Promenade, that had some interesting aspects in terms of how the magic was used. It just looked so much more dynamic than in D&D rulebooks or in BG. Not so much even the magic itself, but how the characters moved when casting it. I had a kind of sense of "Of course! That's how it would look." And no, I haven't been playing a lot of newer games lately.

#11 Guest_Blue-Inked_Frost_*

Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:05 AM

Not so much even the magic itself, but how the characters moved when casting it. I had a kind of sense of "Of course! That's how it would look." And no, I haven't been playing a lot of newer games lately.


That's a good point - describing the physicality of spellcasting, the meaning of gestures and the tolls it might take on the body, the need for nimbleness of finger gestures to make subtle, precise effects versus the vigor and robustness to hold onto a spell and let it finish. I rather like the Theory that invokers and conjurers need high constitution scores because those magics require a lot of physical hardiness--and so Xan doing a summoning or Xzar flinging a lot of missiles and fireballs around might be more constitutionally difficult for those mages, besides not being their specialties. Or a one-handed mage trying to adapt spells to work for them, or an ex-fighter trying to turn their physical endurance into a tool arcane energies can crackle through without killing them.
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