Help writing Edwin. . .

Ok.

Pretty much what it sounds like. I'm having serious trouble getting Edwin to feel right.

I am writing a darker Edwin, but I just can't get him to work. . .

I know this is vague, but any thoughts?

Do you mean Edwin as a proper villain, rather than another comic relief character which is all he usually is?

I guess I can only give some general thoughts on how I see Edwin right now:

The essence of Edwin for me is that he's motivated purely by selfishness. But he is clever and will avoid incriminating himself in anything if he can, usually by not really doing anything 'evil', at least not himself. Instead, if he wants something wicked done or someone removed he'll hire or trick some lackey into doing it for him. He'll only ever lift a finger himself if he absolutely has to. He doesn't want every Bounty Hunter and Paladin on the Sword Coast knocking down the door to his royal suite, disturbing his dreams of evil overlordship. But even if they do, he'll just claim he had absolutely no knowledge of the Bhaalspawn in question and has a hundred witnesses who will prove he wasn't anywhere near the place at the time... Basically, he's like a mob boss; at least he aspires to be someone who has minions to do all his dirty work, while he just relaxes on a beach somewhere with a Brazilian lingerie model.

Hmm. .

That actually helps somewhat. . . it's given me another take on how to handle a scene. . .

And I do mean Edwin as a bit more of a villain. He's still got some of the comic relief, but not as much.

*sigh* Stupid writer's block.

Thanks.

Hmm. .

That actually helps somewhat. . . it's given me another take on how to handle a scene. . .

And I do mean Edwin as a bit more of a villain. He's still got some of the comic relief, but not as much.

It was just a stream of thought, really. Whenever I've written Edwin in the past I've always just written him as a comic character. Although recently I have had ideas for scenes and stories where he is more of a villain so I've only just started thinking about how to develop him in that direction myself.

Anyway, good luck with it

Ok.

Pretty much what it sounds like. I'm having serious trouble getting Edwin to feel right.

I am writing a darker Edwin, but I just can't get him to work. . .

I know this is vague, but any thoughts?

I haven't posted much writing that uses Edwin, so please feel free to disregard this. To me, Edwin's most villainous quality is his selfishness: he's consumed by his own ego, he sees (or tries his best to convince himself of) other people as either serving his purposes in some way or irrelevant, and he doesn't trouble himself with what other people are thinking/feeling unless it directly applies to him. He's friendly to Alora and he hits on Mazzy and Viconia, but he doesn't show much concern toward the welfare of others; many of his dialogues in BG2 are prompted by his need to spontaneously insult Aerie, Haer'Dalis, Anomen, Jaheira, Keldorn, Minsc, Valygar, etc. (I wouldn't call that behaviour strongly evil in and of itself, but a lack of concern for other people is not a positive trait.) Based on his epilogue he also doesn't appear to understand long-term consequences to his actions. That could lead to him taking actions that turn out to be much more evil than originally intended, and of course his egotistic self-justifications would then rise to the occasion and adjust his standards even further downwards as he continued on that path.

I think a lot of sympathy for Edwin comes from the fact that he's not successful at his schemes; if he has won enough times to have a fancy house and minions to do his bidding (like Coutelier says above), then that makes him less pathetic/sympathetic.

I think a lot of sympathy for Edwin comes from the fact that he's not successful at his schemes; if he has won enough times to have a fancy house and minions to do his bidding (like Coutelier says above), then that makes him less pathetic/sympathetic.

I agree... he may aspire to the life of an overlord (he may even already be one in his mind), but he is a long way off actually achieving it.

It's a bit like Blackadder I suppose; complete b******, but we feel sympathy for him due to the fact that really he's an utter failure.

As Frost and Coutelier have pointed out, one of the main tricks to writing Edwin is to remember that he's a schemer and a plotter first and foremost. People are not people, they are tools. For all his big talk about world domination and this and that, what it all boils down to at the end of the day is that he'd much prefer to not get his hands dirty while getting what he wants. The idea of using his wits to manipulate everyone else into giving him what he wants appeals to him. It appeals to his ego, it appeals to his sense of superiority. "I'm better than you, I'm proving it by getting you to play fetch and give me what I want, such that I don't have to do any of the dirty work myself."

As to why most of his schemes don't actually succeed, I'm led to believe (from what we've seen in canon) that it's not so much a failure of intelligence as much as it is an overabundance of hubris. Edwin fails because his reach exceeds his grasp. He tries to do too much, is unwilling to do enough of the work himself, and, like every cartoon villain, is too quick to put all the blame on anyone other than himself. It's that kind of behavior that makes me pretty quick to dislike him, but I think even I would have to admit that if not for that, he might actually be a credible threat.

In addition to being fueled by selfishness, Edwin is in love with his own perceived superiority, both intellectual and otherwise. A lot of his remarks are belittling towards those he regards as beneath him, or those he regards as threats, and his hostile dialogues towards other party members are often in a vein that questions their choices and priorities in life (as opposed to his own impeccable choices, of course)

You'll also need to focus on giving him the same kind of good humorous dialogue as in the original. That particular kind of sarcasm and raging egomania probably contribute most to the kind of feel the character has.

You'll also need to focus on giving him the same kind of good humorous dialogue as in the original. That particular kind of sarcasm and raging egomania probably contribute most to the kind of feel the character has.

Yeah, I can't get that to work either. . . He always comes out sounding stupid; which is not what I want at all.



Thanks for all the thoughts all!

You'll also need to focus on giving him the same kind of good humorous dialogue as in the original. That particular kind of sarcasm and raging egomania probably contribute most to the kind of feel the character has.

Yeah, I can't get that to work either. . . He always comes out sounding stupid; which is not what I want at all.

Thanks for all the thoughts all!

There tends to be a pattern to a lot of Edwin's dialogue. He'll say something sarcastic or insulting, then he'll mutter something even more sarcastic or insulting under his breath. But he always sounds as though he's not aware that anyone else can hear the second part. That is part of the whole 'utterly self-absorbed' thing.

And you might remember that the term 'thinks of themselves as the only real person, everyone else is just an object in their world' is one of the definitions of a sociopath. Especially if you want a darker Edwin.

There tends to be a pattern to a lot of Edwin's dialogue. He'll say something sarcastic or insulting, then he'll mutter something even more sarcastic or insulting under his breath. But he always sounds as though he's not aware that anyone else can hear the second part. That is part of the whole 'utterly self-absorbed' thing.

Yes, I had noticed that. Replicating it is proving hard, but I suppose that's at least a challenge.

And you might remember that the term 'thinks of themselves as the only real person, everyone else is just an object in their world' is one of the definitions of a sociopath. Especially if you want a darker Edwin.

Yeah.

. . . you know, my Edwin is turning into a right evil jackass. *sigh* Oh well.

Thanks.

Oh, and good to see you again, Silrana!

. . . you know, my Edwin is turning into a right evil jackass. *sigh* Oh well.

*chuckle* Why the sigh? IMNTBHO, the game version of Edwin *is* a right evil jackass, just one rendered comedic because of his ineffectualness.

Oh, and good to see you again, Silrana!

I manage to drift through now and then. I'm in the middle of preparing for a major career change at the moment, which is sucking away most of my free time. But I'm still poking away at Canon. I've made the decision to wait until I have finished it before starting to post chapters again so that there aren't any more interruptions.

Ok.

Pretty much what it sounds like. I'm having serious trouble getting Edwin to feel right.

I am writing a darker Edwin, but I just can't get him to work. . .

I know this is vague, but any thoughts?

I've also been experimenting with a darker Edwin.

My basic approach has been similar to the way I deal with my version of Aerie. Essentially, I look at the character and then tweak it by emphasizing or de-emphasizing certain aspects. For instance, with Aerie she's still the inexperienced, somewhat immature girl. But I build on her natural affinity for beauty and art, her compassion, etc. while reining in her, well tendency to whine, just a bit. It's still keeping in character for Aerie, it's just another way to look at her. This is probably a terrible analogy, but it's kinda of like messing with the video controls on your monitor. You adjust the R/G/B levels, the brightness, etc. In the end, it's still the same picture on the screen, but you've brought out what you want to be seen in it.

The other thing I've been doing with Eddie is to look to other works with similar characters for inspiration. For example, the island of Pan Tang in The Elric Saga (Mike Moorcock) is useful for examining the crueler, more decadent elements of a society dominated by wizardry. (I actually think Thay and The Red Wizards may have been at least partially based on Moorcock's Pan Tang, but that's another thread.)

I'm thinking political thrillers might also be useful, given Edwin's scheming nature. Dune might be a good one to look at - I got a feeling Eddie would fit right in with the Harkonnens.

My basic approach has been similar to the way I deal with my version of Aerie. Essentially, I look at the character and then tweak it by emphasizing or de-emphasizing certain aspects. For instance, with Aerie she's still the inexperienced, somewhat immature girl. But I build on her natural affinity for beauty and art, her compassion, etc. while reining in her, well tendency to whine, just a bit. It's still keeping in character for Aerie, it's just another way to look at her. This is probably a terrible analogy, but it's kinda of like messing with the video controls on your monitor. You adjust the R/G/B levels, the brightness, etc. In the end, it's still the same picture on the screen, but you've brought out what you want to be seen in it.

I can like this as a reader, in moderation, and probably do it. I'd also add that choosing particular plots and points of view can be worked to develop a character's worse or better sides. For Edwin's dark side, for example: give him authority over slaves back in Thay and it's unlikely that he'd nobly set them free. Or his fifty-six-hour takeover: I like it as an epilogue for a comically evil character lacking the wisdom to think ahead, but one would assume that it wasn't bloodless, nor would the collateral damage have likely been limited to Edwin's fellow evil Red Wizards. He's capable of hurting innocent bystanders, and give them a name and point of view and Edwin seems that much more evil. Aerie's dark-side buttons can be triggered by slavers, as in one of her epilogues.

Although I would add the typical note of moderation: there's only so far you can deemphasise parts of a character before they've been changed into something obviously foreign, though of course there's no single and absolute dividing line. Sometimes for readers, I think the meta of what a character is meant to be can affect our acceptances: Edwin's a Red Wizard and evil, Aerie's good, so it would probably be easier to swallow him going from comic genderbending to causing more harm than for Aerie's whining to completely override her compassion and potential. But it always depends on how the writing accomplishes any gradual changes that need to be made (and the case of an effectively evil Edwin is only a change insofar as the first adjective is concerned).

Edited by Blue-Inked_Frost, 09 September 2010 - 05:56 AM.