Mod writing rant

Spending several hours uninstalling every single BG2 mod in order has made me realize something. Shocking, isn't it?

My revelation, of sorts, is this. Too many mods get away with being ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Not code-wise or anything. My rules for mods are very simple. If a mod is known to be compatible with other mods, I will probably play it.

Naturally, this has led to all sorts of horrible experiences. However, most of them are from sloppy coding and thus not a part of this pseudo-rant, no matter how many BG2 installs they corrupt (two, for the record). No, my ire is directed at the poorly written mods still being played. So...here's where the actual rant begins, with much bashing of Gary-Stu/Mary-Sues. Warning: the following paragraphs are quite likely to be offensive. But hey, this is Hell's Kitchen after all.

Target #1--Tsujatha Melalor
I have no idea if I spelled his name correctly, and frankly, I don't care. Every one of this character's "banters" with the Bio crew literally had me gritting my teeth. They jarred with the original writing style, for a start. None of the original banters used parentheses for action text, for a start. The "banter" (it's in quotes for a reason) started with this mod character calling Cernd "unnatural." Now, what would BioWARE's Cernd do? Probably just say "peace" and go back to smoking his peacepipe. Joking aside, one would think that Cernd would merely take it in stride, perhaps saying something about how Nature's children come in many forms. In this banter...he gets very, very angry. And this modded jerk gets the last word in this banter, and in EVERY OTHER BANTER IN THE MOD.

Part 2 of my irritation regarding this character is his horrific Gary-Stu factor. He has 19 intelligence, which magically allows him to be smarter, wiser, stronger, faster, and BETTER than all the other characters. There is absolutely no way he should be able to verbally get the better of Aerie, with her 16 WIS as well. But he does. Additionally, this character has a past featuring heroic deeds, a fall from grace, and unrequited love. Cue warning bells and sirens. Additionally, he hates Yoshimo, another BG2 Stu point.

Part 3 is by far the worst. This character has a romance. He will freakishly, obsessively pursue a good-aligned female character--though I think there's still race restrictions. The idea here is that this neutral evil Necromancer is somehow "redeemed" by CHARNAME's love. What actually happens: most of the lovetalks begin with the PC staring at he-whose-name-I-cannot-be-bothered-to-retype. She is forced to show interest. Example: (PC is staring at Tsujatha's bracelet) Hey, where's that from?
Tsujatha: *cue painfully long story about tragic past, then (averts eyes)*
Basically, the romance is what you'd get if someone modded in Edward from those books. I'd suspect that that was the author's intention, save for the fact that this mod came first. Maybe Stephanie Meyer is a closet BG2 fan.

The worst part of this? This character has fans. As in, people who praise its every aspect, seemingly ignorant to its true worth. I say that they just like because it has M-rated content (kidding, kidding. Though it does have mature content). And all that means is that the intimacy scene is more descriptive than in most mods. There are other mods out there that are more mature simply because they deal with difficult issues. There's even other mods that have *optional* mature content. Apparently the author just couldn't be bothered. Lack of effort would certainly explain the utter lack of quality within this mod.

Target #2--Improved Anvil
I sincerely hope that none of this mod's fanatics--I mean fans--are reading this. IA is a buggy mess of overpowered items, pointless item/spell/ability nerfs, and horrendously overpowered enemies, mistakenly referred to as a tactics mod. They say that IA is beatable, even on insane difficulty. It's not the difficulty that concerns me, though. Generally, only skilled gamers install tactics mods of any sort anyway. Also...

Imoen is not a sorceress. Period. Nor does the chipper, bright girl of Candlekeep have a mere 10 intelligence. Nor would the pink-haired nuisance who teases Valygar have 18 wisdom. Yet IA does all of these. Many of the early quests are so impossibly difficult that it is necessary to begin in chapters 2 or 3 and come back in chapter 6. "Oh, so I cleared out most of old Firky's dungeon. Most of the first level, that is. But, you know, I've got stuff to do, people to see, places to go, so ciao." This makes absolutely no sense. The majority of the extra content is gained through following the author's own wishes and playing a ranger PC. Apparently having nothing better to do, he decided to force his own choices on anyone who decided to install this mod. The worst part, for me, is that party composition is then based on which characters have the potential for the most power. Yoshimo is specifically not recommended for this reason. Anomen in TOB is often shunted to simple spell-casting, simply because the enemies' AC is too high for him to so much as hit them. Some people change Jaheira to a cleric/ranger, because it's a better multiclass than her original. All of this is so very wrong. Anomen's always seemed the type of character who would prefer to be in the front lines. Jaheira is a druid, no question about it. And Imoen is, and always should be, a mage/thief.

The irony of this mod is that it is incompatible even with other mods from the same site. Most of the mods from Black Wyrm Lair have horrible game-breaking glitches if...well, if basically any other mod is installed as well. So IA is, for all practical purposes, a badly done Total Conversion.

Target #3--The Darkest Day
The Dumbest Day? Probably. Any mod with a 15 minute cutscene of Viconia getting raped is pretty pathetic. Any mod with a 15 minute cutscene of Viconia getting raped, after which she NEVER MENTIONS IT AGAIN, is truly pathetic. TDD features dozens of new kits, all of which suck. They really need more than a nifty name and two features to differentiate kits from one another. Example: Aerial druid. Bonus to saves vs spells, base 50% resistance to electricity, and +1 to dexterity, but -2 to constitution. It would be more interesting if, say, infinity supported flight (I wish). As it is, the aerial druid is simply dull.

It also features loads of overpowered spells. Lastly, it features NPCs--including Kivan, Kagain, Shar-Teel, Xzar, and Montaron. Possibly more, but I can't recall. In any case, all the NPCs have absolutely nothing to say, save for joining and leaving dialogues. Those who wanted to recreate their BG1 party were sorely, sorely disappointed. Worse, all the characters added by this mod are saddled with its horrible kits, too.

The reason that I rank TDD as the third-worst infinity mod out there is quite simple. It's inspired a fair amount of decent work. Many of the less cheesy spells were integrated into Classic Adventures, for instance. A much better writer was inspired to include Montaron in his Mod for the Wicked, intended to increase evil roleplaying options. And the bladesinger kit was improved for a different mod, such that it a) works and doesn't suck.

End my irritated rant. Having written all this, I think I'm going to play the game with some decent mods soon.

What did you expect in an environment where something like Kelsey is acknowledged by many to set the bar for being 'Good'?

Actually, Kelsey isn't bad as mod NPCs go. There are some truly horrific ones out there. I just listed Tsujatha because I learned to check other forums for opinions before installing mods.

Though IMO, the worst thing about Kelsey is his voicing.

Sadly, the vast majority of mod NPCs are everything that's wrong with fanfic. I've got a soft spot for Kelsey (my own stories totally don't give that away), and I enjoyed the Keto mod, but all the rest I've tried range from embarrassing to flat-out horrific. We're talking game-breaking stats, overly tragic/emo backstories, unbelievably trite interactions with established NPCs, and shudder-inducing romances. I've never tried it, but I imagine writing a mod is not easy, and probably very time consuming. Which would explain why so many people half-ass it and take shortcuts instead taking the trouble to establish their character in the story world in such a way that you should a damn. And for the love of the deity of your choice, give me a reason why the rest of my party should think your dinky mod NPC is the most awesomest person ever. Oh, and don't have your mod character pick fights with the rest of the party to show how edgy they are. That's just rude.

As for gameplay mods, there are quite a few I like, but I've noticed that the bigger a gameplay mod is in scope, the more likely it is fail utterly. Do not let your reach exceed your grasp.

Hey, thanks, Ipsissimus. Felt good to get that off my chest.

Oh my god, you are so right about the quest mods. Tales of the Deep Gardens: not the best mod out there, but it's fairly short and I've always liked it. Check the Bodies: HUGE mod. It's so buggy that it completely corrupted my install, and it just stinks anyway.

About those NPC mods...unfortunately, this picture cuts out most of them.


There are some truly excellent mods out there. Gavin, for instance, is pretty normal--he's a human cleric of Lathander. No angsty past, no special powers, and no cringe-inducing romance. Sarah and Auren have some angst, but it doesn't take center stage. Plus, they're actually human, which is all too rare. But they're really in the minority. At the moment, my BG2 party contains Xan, Kivan, and Amber, who in a way took over my game. Those three characters are among my favorites, but the sheer amount of interjections, banters, and so on stand out way too much. I wouldn't label any of them a Sue/Stu (except Kivan maybe), but...somehow, it still focuses on them. Simply by walking around Athkatla, I ended up having to do three quests (one for Xan and two for Amber).

I think that the problem is that modders want their characters to be "special." Of the many, many mod NPCs out there, most of them have something intended to set them apart. Chloe, for instance, is a demigoddess kensai who happens to prefer women. Neh'Taniel is a romanceable undead elf paladin of Amaunator. Saerilith is fifteen, romanceable, a paladin of Tyr, and hails from Mount Celestia. As for other characters...looking through the NPC modlist, fifteen characters are elves, three are half-elves, two are tieflings (in fact, one's an elven tiefling), two are vampires, and one is a half-dragon. And this is just the currently released NPCs. If I was counting mods in progress, the total would be 17 elves, a former serial killer, the Shadowmaster's adopted son, four half-elves, and a mage possessed by a demon. Point being, this is ridiculous. Humans are supposed to be the most populous race in Faerun, except maybe in elven/dwarven/gnomish etc. lands. Thus, joinable NPCs should reflect this.

Although...something's just occurred to me. Really, Alassa and/or Goo should set the bar for good NPCs. Since character should be worse than those two, any character that is worse is bad, while others are good.

Having spent some time lurking on various modding forums, I'd say that modding is definitely not easy, as it requires writing and coding ability. Plus, modders seem to do one of two things: a) self-insertion or going WAY overboard on content. Best example of the second: Xan. He has crossmod content with 9 NPCs and several quest mods, as well as three different romances and a friendship path. It's a bit too much. I suppose that it results in part from modders wanting people to notice/play/remember their hard work.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head with all of that right there. When someone writes a mod that adds an additional joinable NPC, the assumption is going to be that people are downloading this mod for the express purpose of having this character in the party. Which means that whoever's writing the script for that character is going to want that NPC to "shine."

So the temptation is always there to make this character the absolute best thing since sliced bread. And because of that, it becomes extremely easy to overdo it. When you're looking at writing a whole cast, it's actually easier to not spotlight any one character in particular, since you have to write a whole bunch of people. But when you're writing just one character and you want them to be memorable, the tendency is going to be to just put in way too much... stuff.

Exactly. Ironically, all it does for me is make me not want to play the mod. For some reason, overenthusiastic modders make me think of PETA. They try too hard, so all they do is alienate people. And then you have another potentially good mod, ruined. There was an Avariel NPC in progress at Spellhold Studios, and it looked like it was going to be pretty good. The author was a newbie modder, and he was trying to do too much. The mod is still technically "in progress," but I think that the author just burned out trying to write and code it all.

Edit: Mary-Sue Litmus Test. Let's see how many characters pass THIS.

Target #1--Tsujatha Melalor
I have no idea if I spelled his name correctly, and frankly, I don't care. Every one of this character's "banters" with the Bio crew literally had me gritting my teeth. They jarred with the original writing style, for a start. None of the original banters used parentheses for action text, for a start. The "banter" (it's in quotes for a reason) started with this mod character calling Cernd "unnatural." Now, what would BioWARE's Cernd do? Probably just say "peace" and go back to smoking his peacepipe. Joking aside, one would think that Cernd would merely take it in stride, perhaps saying something about how Nature's children come in many forms. In this banter...he gets very, very angry. And this modded jerk gets the last word in this banter, and in EVERY OTHER BANTER IN THE MOD.

That mod made me very, very happy I have a habit of looking at the dialogue files of NPC mods without actually installing them.

(I haven't actually installed any NPC mods, but that's not really beside the point, as I have yet to find one I'd like to play )

Part 2 of my irritation regarding this character is his horrific Gary-Stu factor. He has 19 intelligence, which magically allows him to be smarter, wiser, stronger, faster, and BETTER than all the other characters. There is absolutely no way he should be able to verbally get the better of Aerie, with her 16 WIS as well. But he does. Additionally, this character has a past featuring heroic deeds, a fall from grace, and unrequited love. Cue warning bells and sirens. Additionally, he hates Yoshimo, another BG2 Stu point.

But but he's sooo wonderful and such a bad boy seeking to be redeemed by the pure hearted girl all while going on about the love of his life who is the awesomest being in the universe and is named after his author's internet handle, oh, and dealing with his issues with her is far more important than your being a mere soulless bhaalspawn, right?

*retch*

Incidentally, Saerileth is written by the same author, which I have found explains much.

Target #2--Improved Anvil
I sincerely hope that none of this mod's fanatics--I mean fans--are reading this. IA is a buggy mess of overpowered items, pointless item/spell/ability nerfs, and horrendously overpowered enemies, mistakenly referred to as a tactics mod. They say that IA is beatable, even on insane difficulty. It's not the difficulty that concerns me, though. Generally, only skilled gamers install tactics mods of any sort anyway. Also...

I play mostly for the story, not for the 'how much crazy stuff can we throw into one fight', so I don't use tactical mods like that. Reading what you have to say about this one, I am happy.

(my challenges are within the framework of the game, and are of the 'wizardless/clericless party' type)

Target #3--The Darkest Day
The Dumbest Day? Probably. Any mod with a 15 minute cutscene of Viconia getting raped is pretty pathetic. Any mod with a 15 minute cutscene of Viconia getting raped, after which she NEVER MENTIONS IT AGAIN, is truly pathetic. TDD features dozens of new kits, all of which suck. They really need more than a nifty name and two features to differentiate kits from one another. Example: Aerial druid. Bonus to saves vs spells, base 50% resistance to electricity, and +1 to dexterity, but -2 to constitution. It would be more interesting if, say, infinity supported flight (I wish). As it is, the aerial druid is simply dull.

Rape Without Plot, as it were? Sheesh.

I think I once saw a mod that let druids use bows. I thought about installing it, but in the end, I decided I couldn't see my druid as a bow-user. (Now, if there was a mod that'd let cleric/rangers use ranger weapons, then we'd be talking!)

All I know about that mod is that a lot of other mods say they won't work if TDD is installed, and that many people hate it.

There are some truly excellent mods out there. Gavin, for instance, is pretty normal--he's a human cleric of Lathander. No angsty past, no special powers, and no cringe-inducing romance. Sarah and Auren have some angst, but it doesn't take center stage. Plus, they're actually human, which is all too rare. But they're really in the minority. At the moment, my BG2 party contains Xan, Kivan, and Amber, who in a way took over my game. Those three characters are among my favorites, but the sheer amount of interjections, banters, and so on stand out way too much. I wouldn't label any of them a Sue/Stu (except Kivan maybe), but...somehow, it still focuses on them. Simply by walking around Athkatla, I ended up having to do three quests (one for Xan and two for Amber).

Once upon a time, there were two Kivan mods in progress. One had him spouting flowery elvish (followed by a repeat of what he'd just said, in englishcommon) and angsting himself through a romance. The other I never saw any dialogue for, but it was going to have a gruff Kivan who would have a relationship of sorts with Viconia. I like gruff Kivan, and I liked the idea of having something develop from their mutual hatred in BGI, whether it be friendship or more detesting each other. However, once the first mod gained prominence, the makers of the second packed up their bags, saying they didn't want to infringe/compete with the first mod.
Admittedly, the last time I looked at the existing mod, it was dramatically toned down both with the language and the angsting, but it's still lightyears away from how I see Kivan. As for Deheriana, I only see her as long dead.

Having spent some time lurking on various modding forums, I'd say that modding is definitely not easy, as it requires writing and coding ability. Plus, modders seem to do one of two things: a) self-insertion or going WAY overboard on content. Best example of the second: Xan. He has crossmod content with 9 NPCs and several quest mods, as well as three different romances and a friendship path. It's a bit too much. I suppose that it results in part from modders wanting people to notice/play/remember their hard work.

I wonder if most of the modders look at the Jaheira content/romance, which far exceeds the content for any other character, and decide they have to AT LEAST do that much. (Also, why are all the male stock romances elven clerics?) (In other words, I suppose the seeds of all the overblown NPCs were planted within the game itself...)

The things I would love to see is a Valygar romance done in subdued Bioware style, and a Nalia romance done in subdued Bioware style. (I know there's a Nalia romance, but I don't know what it's like)

I think people are generally good at either writing or coding but never both at once. That's one reason why I even mentioned Kelsey, because it was technically very sound and virtually bug-less.

Once upon a time, there were two Kivan mods in progress. One had him spouting flowery elvish (followed by a repeat of what he'd just said, in englishcommon) and angsting himself through a romance. The other I never saw any dialogue for, but it was going to have a gruff Kivan who would have a relationship of sorts with Viconia. I like gruff Kivan, and I liked the idea of having something develop from their mutual hatred in BGI, whether it be friendship or more detesting each other. However, once the first mod gained prominence, the makers of the second packed up their bags, saying they didn't want to infringe/compete with the first mod.

They might have been intimidated by some rabid Kivan worshippers who would certainly consider Kivan having any sort of relationship with Viconia as the highest sacrilege ever committed - as he should ever speak only and only of Deheriana. (This is of course just a harmless guesswork of mine!)

Admittedly, the last time I looked at the existing mod, it was dramatically toned down both with the language and the angsting, but it's still lightyears away from how I see Kivan. As for Deheriana, I only see her as long dead.

Doesn't stop him from mentioning her in every sentence, still. By the way, have I told you about Deheriana? Her name was Deheriana. That was her name, Deheriana. (There, I just summed up the hundreds of pages of content for you.)

The things I would love to see is a Valygar romance done in subdued Bioware style, and a Nalia romance done in subdued Bioware style. (I know there's a Nalia romance, but I don't know what it's like)

I never tried the Valygar romance that was in the works, but the Nalia romance I did play quite recently - it was very forgettable. Nalia is a character that badly needs more dimensions added to her - instead, they just take what little there is and try to squeeze it out over 30-40 lovetalks. It's a not very romantic neo-socialist fantasy where you discuss the needy A LOT. I wasn't sure anyone made NPC mods to make the NPCs more bland, but there you go.

Full props to the writers for using the word 'cache-sexe' in the mod, though. When that came I up, I was staring at it for good 10 minutes, not knowing if I should laugh or cry. Thank you for that one moment at least!

He has 19 intelligence, -- There is absolutely no way he should be able to verbally get the better of Aerie, with her 16 WIS as well.

I don't think that particular argument actually makes sense. For a start, if characters really have personalities, you can't read their statistics as necessitating things like that one way or the other. But even using statistics as guidelines, Int is probably more important for verbal performance. And what about Cha? And that shows a further complication, since Aerie has a moderately high Charisma score but is unassertive and unsure of herself, so it seems to reflect her looks more than anything else, which NPCs often find attractive. (Not to say I don't, I just want to make clear the interpretation isn't just based on my view.) But anyway, the point can't really be anything else than the one in the first sentence: You can't posibly make a statement like that based on the game statistics.

That mod made me very, very happy I have a habit of looking at the dialogue files of NPC mods without actually installing them.

(I haven't actually installed any NPC mods, but that's not really beside the point, as I have yet to find one I'd like to play)

*headdesk* Lucky you. It took me several crummy mods to learn my lesson. Fortunately, I caught myself with the Neh'Taniel mod--read the dialogues first, and realized exactly how bad it was (typos aargh). But there are some good NPCs out there; it's just a matter of sorting through the horrible stuff. At least some modders admit their NPCs are horrible *cough*AlassaGoo*cough*, and it's pretty easy to find player feedback. Hence why I will never play Circle or Square mods,

Incidentally, Saerileth is written by the same author, which I have found explains much

I'll say. Let's see, tooth-achingly sweet teenager or angsty 400-year-old virgin? No middle ground, is there?

I play mostly for the story, not for the 'how much crazy stuff can we throw into one fight', so I don't use tactical mods like that. Reading what you have to say about this one, I am happy.

There are decent tactics mods out there. Sword Coast Strategems and Rogue Rebalancing just improve enemy AI. IA...isn't pretty. It's so buggy that testers complain. I hope no BWL users are reading this...merely mentioning IA without showering it with praise generally starts a flamewar. And the author is such a jerk that he insists he's an underappreciated tactical and modding genius, and all other modders are rude people reduced to stealing his ideas.

I think I once saw a mod that let druids use bows. I thought about installing it, but in the end, I decided I couldn't see my druid as a bow-user. (Now, if there was a mod that'd let cleric/rangers use ranger weapons, then we'd be talking!)

There's two different mods to let cleric/rangers use ranger weapons. B!Tweaks at tolkienacrossthewater.com and Ashes of Embers at pocketplane.net both use stat-based requirements for weapons. I think Morrow Gate also lets c/rs use ranger gear, but I can't remember the host site (should be on the ppg modlist, though).

Once upon a time, there were two Kivan mods in progress. One had him spouting flowery elvish (followed by a repeat of what he'd just said, in englishcommon) and angsting himself through a romance.

*wince* *twitch* Yeah, I know that one. The fangirls frighten me. *twitch*

The other I never saw any dialogue for, but it was going to have a gruff Kivan who would have a relationship of sorts with Viconia.

Would that be a Moongaze mod, perchance? Moongaze at one point had a number of great ideas, but he was such a prima donna that he flamed everyone on 3 different mod sites and left for Black Wyrm Lair. Only four of his projects ever got finished, and he just recently unveiled (and abandoned) another project that sounded pretty good.

I like gruff Kivan, and I liked the idea of having something develop from their mutual hatred in BGI, whether it be friendship or more detesting each other.

In the existing BG2 mod, there is an opportunity for Kivan to become a fallen ranger. At that point, Viconia will start trying to corrupt him further--I think. Never played it.

Admittedly, the last time I looked at the existing mod, it was dramatically toned down both with the language and the angsting, but it's still lightyears away from how I see Kivan. As for Deheriana, I only see her as long dead.

Simple. Deheriana is in the past and should remain so. I like her in the mod, but I see that mod the same way as SisterVigilante's Angelo: different from the original character, but too similar to be an original NPC mod. But if you consider it an original character with a freakish resemblance to a canon character, the mod seems a lot better.

I think people are generally good at either writing or coding but never both at once. That's one reason why I even mentioned Kelsey, because it was technically very sound and virtually bug-less

It's not that bug-less, actually. I've found that there are issues installing Kelsey with newer mods. The banter accelerator is particularly bad, as there's a newer and better version that the old one doesn't check for. And there are some mods that are both bug-free and relatively well-written. They're just hard to find among all the junk.

Doesn't stop him from mentioning her in every sentence, still. By the way, have I told you about Deheriana? Her name was Deheriana. That was her name, Deheriana. (There, I just summed up the hundreds of pages of content for you.)

"My soul aches for my lost Deheriana." *cringe* That line still comes up in the BG2 romance, amusingly. As in, in the actual romance part. And he still talks about Deheriana, again in the romance.

They might have been intimidated by some rabid Kivan worshippers who would certainly consider Kivan having any sort of relationship with Viconia as the highest sacrilege ever committed - as he should ever speak only and only of Deheriana. (This is of course just a harmless guesswork of mine!)

Fangirls can be truly frightening. I wouldn't be surprised. I saw a thread on the old Haer'Dalis romance boards go from flirt suggestions to vicious Aerie flaming. Ditto on the Aklon forums--he has a planned romance with Aerie. It can be downright ugly to see what some players think should happen.

I think it's not so much the mod's quality as compared to other mods that matters, but its quality in a single, standalone game. I rarely have more than 1 mod character in my party, which works pretty well. For instance, playing the Xan romance starting in BG1 with the same party members was great. I had my favorite BG1 characters (Jaheira, Imoen, Xan) and my favorite BG2 characters (Yoshimo, Aerie, Valygar). If you haven't played it, there are certain nasty, depressing events in the Xan romance, and most of my party commented. And it was in-character. Had to start a new game for some reason I now forget, and had Xan, Kivan, Auren, Sarah, and Amber as my party. They all have crossmod content, but it still wasn't nearly as enjoyable as my earlier game. In the end I started yet another new game and just played through to the (thoroughly depressing) end of TOB.

Though this makes me wonder... There's an NPC in development at G3 right now. Aran Whitehand is a "companion mod," meaning that he comments on basically everything that goes on, including modded content. On the one hand, this means lots and lots of banters, which--judging from the previews--should be interesting and well-written. On the other hand, is this going to be "SOA starring Whitehand?" I believe that the author was intentionally omitting a quest for that reason, so...we'll see, I guess.

There is a tried-and-true method for improved gameplay, however. Quest mods, and lots of 'em. It's just a matter of finding the good ones, unfortunately.

Also, why have all my posts here been so incredibly long?

He has 19 intelligence, -- There is absolutely no way he should be able to verbally get the better of Aerie, with her 16 WIS as well.

I don't think that particular argument actually makes sense. For a start, if characters really have personalities, you can't read their statistics as necessitating things like that one way or the other. But even using statistics as guidelines, Int is probably more important for verbal performance. And what about Cha? And that shows a further complication, since Aerie has a moderately high Charisma score but is unassertive and unsure of herself, so it seems to reflect her looks more than anything else, which NPCs often find attractive. (Not to say I don't, I just want to make clear the interpretation isn't just based on my view.) But anyway, the point can't really be anything else than the one in the first sentence: You can't posibly make a statement like that based on the game statistics.

I don't want to encourage that Ridiculous Fantasy Stu In Love With Author Self-Insert mentioned in the original post (I skimmed over the character's website/'novel' excerpt), but I want to comment on argumentum-ad-statisticum. I don't like original characters scoring cheaply off canon characters, but Aerie isn't the most verbally confident of people. I see her as an intelligent mage and cleric with a lot of potential, but she has that stutter and uncertainty as part of her verbal patterns. Despite her high statistics, it wouldn't be in character for her to play Lord Peter Wimsey with biting wit for every occasion, however much a triumph over an idiot angsty necromancer may be well deserved...

The mental statistics especially are such ambiguous composites that they're useful as a starting point (like, Branwen is *not* an idiot, look at her Wis and social intelligence Charisma! Shar-Teel's 14 and Skie's 15 are also not terrible!), but a character's behaviour is a stronger guide...

He has 19 intelligence, -- There is absolutely no way he should be able to verbally get the better of Aerie, with her 16 WIS as well.

I don't think that particular argument actually makes sense. For a start, if characters really have personalities, you can't read their statistics as necessitating things like that one way or the other. But even using statistics as guidelines, Int is probably more important for verbal performance.

I'd post a link to SHS Wiki's "What stat scores mean," but unfortunately the wiki is broken. In any case, Tsujatha has low WIS. As Wisdom measures intuition, logic, and common sense, he shouldn't be that good at arguments. Aerie has high Intelligence and Wisdom, meaning that she's clever and logical. Compare this to Edwin--he's a freaking genius, but he might cast a fireball spell without realizing that it might hit his allies. Low wisdom generally indicates naivety, impulsivity and poor judgment.

Also, Charisma measures one's "people skills," or rather how others see a character. Hence why shiny paladins and charming bards need high charisma (don't know about the druids, though). So I'd say that intelligence, wisdom, and charisma are the most important in speaking, with INT and CHR taking priority.

And what about Cha? And that shows a further complication, since Aerie has a moderately high Charisma score but is unassertive and unsure of herself, so it seems to reflect her looks more than anything else, which NPCs often find attractive.

I think that part of it is that Bioware couldn't really decide what definition of charisma they wanted. Were it only physical attractiveness, half-orcs would receive a hefty penalty. If it were just "people skills," most characters would have extremely low Charisma. But you're right about Aerie. IIRC, a score of 14 is generally "best in the region."

But anyway, the point can't really be anything else than the one in the first sentence: You can't posibly make a statement like that based on the game statistics.

It depends. Minsc occasionally says surprisingly intelligent/wise things, but he claims that it's from Boo. Skie's low wisdom score is tied to her naivety. Imoen has average wisdom from her sheltered childhood, but is extremely bright, likely related to growing up in a library. But then again, Xzar should have had about 8 wisdom and charisma, from being insane and funny-looking. And Tiax does have horrible wis/chr, related to his insanity. Part of the problem with stat scores is that Bioware wasn't really consistent. The best example I can think of is Cernd: so bland that he's easy to forget, yet he has 15 charisma. (also, what exactly is he smoking? same stuff as Ellesime, probably)

I don't like original characters scoring cheaply off canon characters, but Aerie isn't the most verbally confident of people. I see her as an intelligent mage and cleric with a lot of potential, but she has that stutter and uncertainty as part of her verbal patterns. Despite her high statistics, it wouldn't be in character for her to play Lord Peter Wimsey with biting wit for every occasion, however much a triumph over an idiot angsty necromancer may be well deserved...

Indeed, which is why the poor girl is so often target practice. One of the only things I liked about the BG2 Kivan mod is that Aerie is not bashed. Not once. And she comes off as good-hearted, slightly uncertain, and willing to try and better herself--in other words, what I like about canon Aerie.

The mental statistics especially are such ambiguous composites that they're useful as a starting point (like, Branwen is *not* an idiot, look at her Wis and social intelligence Charisma! Shar-Teel's 14 and Skie's 15 are also not terrible!), but a character's behaviour is a stronger guide...

Yeslick also isn't an idiot. 7 intelligence is little better than Minsc, and makes Korgan look like a genius. Yes, stat scores are definitely stupid at times. They do, however, provide a rough outline for what characters should be able to do. My half-orc berserker with 3 int/wis/chr isn't going planning a battle of wits with Edwin any time soon.

Now, this is veering to the point where it might just be my own interpretation, but I think logic definitely goes to the side of Int, not Wis. At least when it's pure enough logic; Wis would be needed to notice when you're coming to conclusions that common sense dictates can't be true or something, and maybe help in detecting the false premiss you've been logically building on. The line blurs somewhere in between, but if we speak of just logic, that definitely sounds like Int to me. Logical ability is as far as I can tell practically the same as mathematical ability.

Also, the wiser character might end up in the correct conclusion, but the more intelligent might still present his opinion so that it would sound better.

I think that part of it is that Bioware couldn't really decide what definition of charisma they wanted. Were it only physical attractiveness, half-orcs would receive a hefty penalty. If it were just "people skills," most characters would have extremely low Charisma. But you're right about Aerie. IIRC, a score of 14 is generally "best in the region."

I don't think it was just either in 2nd edition, but rather a compromise between them.

Imoen has average wisdom from her sheltered childhood, but is extremely bright, likely related to growing up in a library.

I see it as having more to do with inborn tendencies, with her being born with tendencies to be very bright and imaginative but not very sensible. (Of course, this is going beyond just interpeting and into how I have expanded the character to write her.)

But then again, Xzar should have had about 8 wisdom and charisma, from being insane and funny-looking.

I'm writing him as being ingenious when it comes to things like magic and alchemy, and not having altogether horrible people skills because he can play it smart on occasion when trying to influence people. (Sort of like what he does when you first meet him, shaming you into cooperation with a gift of potions, allowing for the fact that all character interactions in that game are horribly shallow so that's no worse than the rest.)

By the way, why is it that people want to play completely original NPC mods anyway?

By the way, why is it that people want to play completely original NPC mods anyway?

Because variety is the spice of game replay life. And because, from a love interest angle, it'd be nice to let your PC develop a romantic relationship with someone isn't either A) an elven priestess with issues (now in your choice of alignments!) or, Anomen. Of course, given the quality of most mod NPCs, you're still not left with many options.

I think people are generally good at either writing or coding but never both at once. That's one reason why I even mentioned Kelsey, because it was technically very sound and virtually bug-less.

Implying something, are we?

Admittedly, the last time I looked at the existing mod, it was dramatically toned down both with the language and the angsting, but it's still lightyears away from how I see Kivan. As for Deheriana, I only see her as long dead.

Doesn't stop him from mentioning her in every sentence, still. By the way, have I told you about Deheriana? Her name was Deheriana. That was her name, Deheriana. (There, I just summed up the hundreds of pages of content for you.)

Ick.
At least in BG1 he only mentions her every once in a while. Otherwise, it's just huffing and puffing and grumbling

The things I would love to see is a Valygar romance done in subdued Bioware style, and a Nalia romance done in subdued Bioware style. (I know there's a Nalia romance, but I don't know what it's like)

I never tried the Valygar romance that was in the works, but the Nalia romance I did play quite recently - it was very forgettable. Nalia is a character that badly needs more dimensions added to her - instead, they just take what little there is and try to squeeze it out over 30-40 lovetalks. It's a not very romantic neo-socialist fantasy where you discuss the needy A LOT. I wasn't sure anyone made NPC mods to make the NPCs more bland, but there you go.

Hmm, so someone completely missed the point of Nalia growing from little miss feed-the-needy to miss Archmage-vying-for-a-Council-seat, I take it?

Full props to the writers for using the word 'cache-sexe' in the mod, though. When that came I up, I was staring at it for good 10 minutes, not knowing if I should laugh or cry. Thank you for that one moment at least!

*looks it up*

*bursts out laughing*

(Do I want to know the context? I don't think I do)