...kindly FUCK OFF AND DIE HORRIBLY.
A crazy teenager shot 8 apparently random people in his school and himself. Nothing like this has happened before in Finland.
I didn't know personally anyone involved, but anyway I didn't need to see a news item that the mentioned church is "thanking God for 9 dead Finns" because our country, apparently, is a disgusting house of sodomy and promotes homosexuality. That is retarded and evil. And done in name of faith and higher moral ground. It pisses me off even more than it normally would as I am marginally emotionally involved.
Thanks for listening. I just needed to get that off my chest.
Dear Westboro baptist church, Kansas...
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#2
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:28 PM
I think they did the same thing when thousands of Swedes died in the tsunami in Indonesia, few years back. They also had dedicated a special 'why God hates Swedes' website made for the occasion.
But yeah. They thrive on despair and suffering of others. That is so Evil that it's really hard to comprehend how they can justify themselves as being something non-Evil... but maybe it's for the best that I can't understand them. I mean... they are the RL embodiment of the cartoonish D&D Evil. They're the Church of Cyric, literally.
But I know it's really hard not to get upset with those comments, when they are aimed at something that you feel strongly about.
But yeah. They thrive on despair and suffering of others. That is so Evil that it's really hard to comprehend how they can justify themselves as being something non-Evil... but maybe it's for the best that I can't understand them. I mean... they are the RL embodiment of the cartoonish D&D Evil. They're the Church of Cyric, literally.
But I know it's really hard not to get upset with those comments, when they are aimed at something that you feel strongly about.
#3
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 04:30 PM
I'm sorry others including you were upset by this, but I must say I really feel pretty much nothing at hearing it. I might have found it difficult to believe some years ago, but after what I've been hearing about groups like this, there's probably nothing they can say or do that would be any kind of news. And given how blatantly messed up they are, there doesn't seem to be any reasonable emotion to feel other than pity.
#4
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:50 AM
I am truly sorry about the tragedy in your country. I hope you feel better after venting...but if you don't, that's understandable.
As for the so-called "church"...well, I think most decent folks would agree that those id10ts are vermin of the lowest order. I don't know whose voice they think they're listening to...
As for the so-called "church"...well, I think most decent folks would agree that those id10ts are vermin of the lowest order. I don't know whose voice they think they're listening to...
#5
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 06:06 AM
I am truly sorry about the tragedy in your country. I hope you feel better after venting...but if you don't, that's understandable.
Heh, I do
I have always found ranting a good way to deal with anger. As for sadness, that is not the sledgehammer-in-intestines sort of sadness you get when you are really involved, just the pondering-of-futility-of-all kind of generalized sadness that will dissipate rather soon as life goes on - as it goes for those who are not involved. As does the mild shock that comes from being able to imagine the situation and identifying with people.As for the so-called "church"...well, I think most decent folks would agree that those id10ts are vermin of the lowest order. I don't know whose voice they think they're listening to...
I agree, and that includes people who think homosexual lifestyle is sinful. If they were nevertheless decent people, they'd be sad about a senseless tragedy like this even if the victims were known homosexual activists instead of just citizens of a country whose politics they don't like.
#6
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 06:25 AM
I'm sorry others including you were upset by this, but I must say I really feel pretty much nothing at hearing it. I might have found it difficult to believe some years ago, but after what I've been hearing about groups like this, there's probably nothing they can say or do that would be any kind of news. And given how blatantly messed up they are, there doesn't seem to be any reasonable emotion to feel other than pity.
I don't pity them as long as they continue to harass other people and spew their evil on them.
I have studied this and that in university lately, and nature of evil is one of the subjects I'm interested in.
There are the rare ones who actually enjoy others' suffering. The sadists and psychopaths.
Then there is the vast majority - the banally evil people who just out of conformity and sheepishness look the other way or participate in any form of horror, the people Hannah Arendt , Stanley Milgram and Erich Fromm aptly describe.
There are guys like the shooter in this case - a confused and angry young man who had read far too much Nietchze and Linkola (a Finnish environment fascist/extremist) and developed a philosophy of nihilism and misanthropy out of terribly banal feelings of anger. These people proudly proclaim they are evil - really meaning that they are superior, cut above the rest, independent thinkers, stronger than others.
And the evil that simply is inherited and recreated - children who are beaten and treated mercilessly and who grow into violent and merciless adults. If I hyperbolize a little, the only kind of evil our leftist mainstream thought admits even exists.
Therefore, I also wonder about those evil people who think they are good and others are evil - to the extent that they rationalize murder and terrorism.
#7
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 09:29 AM
This overlaps with my current studies too, and even more so with my interests in a broader sense.I have studied this and that in university lately, and nature of evil is one of the subjects I'm interested in.
I keep wondering how far I would have complied in the Milgram experiments - I feel I would have felt qualified to question the arrangement - but I'm sure glad I've at least read about them so that now I know the trick, so to speak, and can reflect on any such situation with the knowledge that, yes, obedience may really go too far.Then there is the vast majority - the banally evil people who just out of conformity and sheepishness look the other way or participate in any form of horror, the people Hannah Arendt , Stanley Milgram and Erich Fromm aptly describe.
I would have thought they'd more likely say they're superior, independent, stronger, etc. and mean they're evil...There are guys like the shooter in this case - a confused and angry young man who had read far too much Nietchze and Linkola (a Finnish environment fascist/extremist) and developed a philosophy of nihilism and misanthropy out of terribly banal feelings of anger. These people proudly proclaim they are evil - really meaning that they are superior, cut above the rest, independent thinkers, stronger than others.
That'd be a variant of the cult/fundamentalist/Orwellian mindset, where ideas other than the idea that We Are Right (or to put it in another way, uncertainty, doubt and difference of any kind) are considered dangerous and are replaced with an absolutely rigid pretense of certainty. That's one of my chief interest in my studies and otherwise right now (the other big one being the opposite - the philosophy of science). If you just wait long enough, you'll probably be able to read books by me about the subject.Therefore, I also wonder about those evil people who think they are good and others are evil - to the extent that they rationalize murder and terrorism.
#8
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:29 PM
Yeah, same here. I find that when I get really ticked, if I can close the door, shout, and toss some (hard-to-break) things on the floor (because cleaning up shards only ticks me off further), I can be good-to-go in about 5 minutes.I am truly sorry about the tragedy in your country. I hope you feel better after venting
Heh, I do
I dislike activists of nearly all kinds and stripes, liberals and conservatives--though I definitely don't want anyone to suffer.I agree, and that includes people who think homosexual lifestyle is sinful. If they were nevertheless decent people, they'd be sad about a senseless tragedy like this even if the victims were known homosexual activists instead of just citizens of a country whose politics they don't like.
I just want to lead a quiet life, where I don't force my opinions on anyone else and where no one forces his/her opinions on me, either. I really don't appreciate people who are in my face, whether it's the if-you-don't-think-what-I-think-you-will-be-eternally-d***ed crowd, or the you're-a-bigot-or-otherwise-subevolved-if-you-don't-think-what-I-think folks. People, just live the way you want to, the way you feel is morally right, but in the process don't cause hurt to others. I don't think that's too much to ask.
#9
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:36 PM
I remember Louis Theroux did a documentary where he lived with them for a while, called 'The Most Hated Family in America'. And really the 'church' is just Fred Phelps' offspring and inlaws etc; all 90 of them. People who come under fire from the preacher include the Swedish, Jews, Catholics, Dog owners... basically they hate anyone who isn't one of them. They sing hymns like 'God hates the USA' and picket the funerals of soldiers who have died in Iraq; from what I understand they think that if you die in any way other than natural causes, it means you must have sinned.
Unfortunately I think what Louis Theroux said in the documentary is probably true; the more we hate them, the more it reinforces their twisted belief that they're doing Gods work. And that Fred Phelps is likely a rageaholic.
Unfortunately I think what Louis Theroux said in the documentary is probably true; the more we hate them, the more it reinforces their twisted belief that they're doing Gods work. And that Fred Phelps is likely a rageaholic.
#11
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 02:42 PM
I like to do it virtually - I start Jedi Academy, load a suitable savegame and saber a few dozen dark jedi. Of course, I also like to do that when I'm bored or excited or frustrated or something else. It's an amazingly entertaining game. (I actually play worse when I'm angry - shows I haven't mastered the Dark Side.)Yeah, same here. I find that when I get really ticked, if I can close the door, shout, and toss some (hard-to-break) things on the floor (because cleaning up shards only ticks me off further), I can be good-to-go in about 5 minutes.Heh, I do
#12
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:43 PM
But I know it's really hard not to get upset with those comments, when they are aimed at something that you feel strongly about.
Even if it was not my countrymen, the sheer stupidity and malevolence of it would make me react, though probably not enough to publish a rant at the Attic.
#13
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:59 PM
I keep wondering how far I would have complied in the Milgram experiments
Yeah, I guess everyone does who reads about it. It is an important experiment.
I have read a lot about the Third Reich, and remember being shocked about how ordinary the people, even the most active and central ones, who made it possible, were. Yet they were others who knew evil when they saw it, and worked to stop it in one way or other. I talked about it to my best friend and said that I have to wonder if I would have been one of those who go with the flow or the ones who see what is right and wrong and have the courage to act on it. He said that he is convinced that I would have been one of the courageous ones. I consider it possibly the most beautiful thing anyone ever has said to me, even if I'm not sure it is true.
I would have thought they'd more likely say they're superior, independent, stronger, etc. and mean they're evil...
Well, they say that too. But they say that they are evil as if it's an admirable thing - in contrast to the other guys in my typology who don't see themselves as ecil.
That'd be a variant of the cult/fundamentalist/Orwellian mindset, where ideas other than the idea that We Are Right (or to put it in another way, uncertainty, doubt and difference of any kind) are considered dangerous and are replaced with an absolutely rigid pretense of certainty. That's one of my chief interest in my studies and otherwise right now (the other big one being the opposite - the philosophy of science). If you just wait long enough, you'll probably be able to read books by me about the subject.
Isn't it so that all fundamentalists/cults share a fair amount of characteristics regardless of the environment they have developed in? I have read about evil mostly in psychological and philosophical POV - this would be more of social psychological topic. I am tackling some cultural anthropology next. (My other topics of interest are multiculturalism as an ideology, which I believe to be a faulty and harmful one, modern nationalism and theory of democracy).
I think I forgot one type of evil - evil for gain. Bullies, cheaters, thoroughly selfish people who hurt others because they get away with it and gain some benefits from doing so. They usually falsely think everyone does this, or if they don't they have a hidden agenda and are hypocrites. These people perhaps surprisingly are the hardest to fathom to me precisely because they are so ordinary and sane, yet impossible to understand how they sleep their nights or justify their behavior to them selves.
#14
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 04:07 PM
[quote]
Heh, I do I have always found ranting a good way to deal with anger. [/quote]
Yeah, same here. I find that when I get really ticked, if I can close the door, shout, and toss some (hard-to-break) things on the floor (because cleaning up shards only ticks me off further), I can be good-to-go in about 5 minutes.
[/quote]
Me too
Or sometimes a verbal equivalent will do, such as the post I started this thread with.
[quote]
I dislike activists of nearly all kinds and stripes, liberals and conservatives--though I definitely don't want anyone to suffer.
[/quote]
That depends on how one defines activist, but in most cases I feel the same way. People who get in your face are annoying, that's a fact. I think tolerance is a virtue - not tolerance understood as moral or intellectual laziness or indifference, but ability to leave other people alone if they hurt no-one and respecting the good qualities of those you disagree with about other things. Or ability to play nice with others and respect rules of co-operation even when you disagree.
I tend to get annoyed by the leftist-leaning activists more often, but that's because in Finland they definitely have more power than conservative ones.
Heh, I do
I have always found ranting a good way to deal with anger. [/quote]Yeah, same here. I find that when I get really ticked, if I can close the door, shout, and toss some (hard-to-break) things on the floor (because cleaning up shards only ticks me off further), I can be good-to-go in about 5 minutes.
[/quote]
Me too
Or sometimes a verbal equivalent will do, such as the post I started this thread with.[quote]
I dislike activists of nearly all kinds and stripes, liberals and conservatives--though I definitely don't want anyone to suffer.
[/quote]
That depends on how one defines activist, but in most cases I feel the same way. People who get in your face are annoying, that's a fact. I think tolerance is a virtue - not tolerance understood as moral or intellectual laziness or indifference, but ability to leave other people alone if they hurt no-one and respecting the good qualities of those you disagree with about other things. Or ability to play nice with others and respect rules of co-operation even when you disagree.
I tend to get annoyed by the leftist-leaning activists more often, but that's because in Finland they definitely have more power than conservative ones.
#15
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 04:14 PM
And really the 'church' is just Fred Phelps' offspring and inlaws etc; all 90 of them. People who come under fire from the preacher include the Swedish, Jews, Catholics, Dog owners... basically they hate anyone who isn't one of them. They sing hymns like 'God hates the USA' and picket the funerals of soldiers who have died in Iraq; from what I understand they think that if you die in any way other than natural causes, it means you must have sinned.
Please tell me they inbreed.
So what if one of them dies from an unnatural cause? This sounds more like a case of insanity than religion, which is kind of a relief. What a jackpot to be born in that family! I wonder if a kid born to them has any chance to develop into a normal human being.
Unfortunately I think what Louis Theroux said in the documentary is probably true; the more we hate them, the more it reinforces their twisted belief that they're doing Gods work. And that Fred Phelps is likely a rageaholic.
I guess I can pity him just a little bit, if I imagine how bad he must feel to wallow in that poison and hate, day after day. As for doing anything other for them than hating and marginalizing them, I believe they are beyond salvage.
#16
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 04:32 PM
Please tell me they inbreed.
So what if one of them dies from an unnatural cause? This sounds more like a case of insanity than religion, which is kind of a relief. What a jackpot to be born in that family! I wonder if a kid born to them has any chance to develop into a normal human being.
I you die from an unnatural then God has struck you down for being a sinner and we should rejoice. If it's one of them then I guess the others just reason that they must have done something sinful. They're the only ones going to heaven apparently, and they think that telling everyone else that God hates them and that they're all going to hell is an act of love... yeah it's pretty insane.
I know there are plenty of other christians who think people are doomed if they haven't discovered christ etc, but they at least try to save souls and all that. Far as I can tell the WBC makes no effort whatsoever to convert anyone from an eternity of pitchforks and pokers... the only thing they teach is hatred.
I think some of the kids have left, and promptly been disowned by their father/pastor. It was quite sad watching the film though; when they went out on one of their pickets they brought their youngest who were just toddlers and had no idea what 'God hates Fags' and the other signs they were holding meant at all.
Unfortunately I think what Louis Theroux said in the documentary is probably true; the more we hate them, the more it reinforces their twisted belief that they're doing Gods work. And that Fred Phelps is likely a rageaholic.
I guess I can pity him just a little bit, if I imagine how bad he must feel to wallow in that poison and hate, day after day. As for doing anything other for them than hating and marginalizing them, I believe they are beyond salvage.
I know... the problem is they just interpret it as them being persecuted for teaching what they believe is the true word of God.
#17
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 05:53 PM
Cult members are never actually sinless in the eyes of the cult. Only the leaders. It's actually a technique of malignant cults to make impossible demands of their members so that they're constantly feeling guilty. I don't empirically know how much this model applies in this case, but I don't see why it wouldn't.So what if one of them dies from an unnatural cause? This sounds more like a case of insanity than religion, which is kind of a relief. What a jackpot to be born in that family! I wonder if a kid born to them has any chance to develop into a normal human being.
I you die from an unnatural then God has struck you down for being a sinner and we should rejoice. If it's one of them then I guess the others just reason that they must have done something sinful. They're the only ones going to heaven apparently, and they think that telling everyone else that God hates them and that they're all going to hell is an act of love... yeah it's pretty insane.
So if one of the members "turns out to be sinful", that should be easy enough to explain, except for the part that they'll probably doublethink that overall their group is oh so very righteous no matter how many individuals are condemned.
#18
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 06:09 PM
Might be true. I'm sure I would have recognised it as wrong, but I have no idea if I'd have the courage to do anything. I have little idea as to how much courage I'd have in the face personal of danger.I have read a lot about the Third Reich, and remember being shocked about how ordinary the people, even the most active and central ones, who made it possible, were. Yet they were others who knew evil when they saw it, and worked to stop it in one way or other. I talked about it to my best friend and said that I have to wonder if I would have been one of those who go with the flow or the ones who see what is right and wrong and have the courage to act on it. He said that he is convinced that I would have been one of the courageous ones. I consider it possibly the most beautiful thing anyone ever has said to me, even if I'm not sure it is true.
That's kind of my personal thesis - I've read others say it in usually a bit more restricted terms, such as that fundamentalists of different brands are alike.Isn't it so that all fundamentalists/cults share a fair amount of characteristics regardless of the environment they have developed in?
Actually, I think there's a certain kind of thought/behaviour/whatever pattern that crops up in all sorts of different context. It seems it forms some kind of a continuum - ordinary biased thinking or willful ignorance might be a bit like that, and the worst cults or fundamentalist groups take it to the extreme. The extreme is also what is depicted in Orwell's 1984. You see these parallels between single things on my list being drawn on different occasions. For example, the Uskontojen uhrien tuki UUT ry website has this bit where someone compares 1984 and the thinking of Jehova's Witnesses. (Actually, there is more of a direct comparsion at the bottom of this page.)
But this pattern of all the different things as analoguous is something I've seen emerging from all the data I've been looking at as a whole more than mentioned by any single source that I can remember.
#19
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 08:49 PM
I'm not sure, but are those the same people who also think all Swedes should die horribly because we consider homosexuals to be human and having the right to live?
Well, maybe just their brothers and sisters in simian-hood.
Well, maybe just their brothers and sisters in simian-hood.
Rogues do it from behind.
#20
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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:03 PM
I'm not sure, but are those the same people who also think all Swedes should die horribly because we consider homosexuals to be human and having the right to live?
It was all about another Pastor called Ake Green, who in a sermon said that homosexuality was a 'cancerous tumour on the body of society' and was sentenced to a month in prison for hate speech.
Phelps came out in his defence by putting up a website called 'godhatessweden.com' and sending his followers out to picket stores in the US that happened to be selling Swedish products. But in the end, Green proved too much of pansy liberal for Phelps' lot and was condemned by him as a traitor.
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