Jump to content


US Christian fundamentalism


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 03:38 PM

(posted here for the explosive potential)

I am having an argument with a Finnish guy who insists that Christianity is such a good religion because you can't have a brand of Christianity that would be violent, intolerant of non-believers, hateful and power-hungry. That would be, according to him, non-biblical and incompatible with Christ's teachings, ergo, these people would not be Christian no matter what they say. His idea of typical Christians are the Amishes who prayed for the guy who shot Amish kids and helped his family. He thinks that while Christians may disapprove of what they consider sin, they keep it mostly to themselves and don't try to force their lifestyle upon others.

My pragmatic approach is that it is of little consolation to people if there are power-hungry, even violent, bullies with significant power who call themselves Christians if someone somewhere think that they are not. If there are millions of Christians or 'Christians' who do this, then Christianity *can* be a bad religion, too. So, you who live there and know the specifics better than me: could you post me some good examples of Christianity at its worst in contemporary USA so that I could prove my point better to him.

#2 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 05:50 PM

Duh. Begging the question. Any religion is the most peaceful and nice if you get to say that those who aren't can't be of that religion. Absolutely any statement (at least if it's negative) could be proven by that reasoning. You have the right approach in showing him wrong in practice, but on the level of reasoning he just has no case of any sort.

I could think of examples myself, but I live here so I'll leave that to them over there.

#3 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 06:03 PM

Duh. Begging the question. Any religion is the most peaceful and nice if you get to say that those who aren't can't be of that religion. Absolutely any statement (at least if it's negative) could be proven by that reasoning. You have the right approach in showing him wrong in practice, but on the level of reasoning he just has no case of any sort.


I could think of examples myself, but I live here so I'll leave that to them over there.


Well, he goes by the holy scripts or the religions and the teachings of their founders (mostly discussing Jesus and Mohammed and once in a while Buddha), and argues that these make a difference in what kind of life the believers lead. So I think he kind of has a point, but he chooses to ignore all the other things that influence a religion's practice. Simply denying the more unpleasant factions the label is a cop-out, I think.

#4 Laufey

Posted 08 January 2007 - 06:18 PM

I guess my reply would be something along the lines of: It doesn't matter that *he* doesn't think they are true Christians, the important part is that *they* think they are and do their violence in the name of that religion.

Yes, there are plenty of people who do good deeds in the name of Christianity, but there are also plenty of people who do bad things. One person calling them 'not Christian' doesn't change that fact.

Unless this guy is Jesus Reborn of course, in which case I will defer to his opinion provided he walks on water first.

As for examples...I'm not from the USA of course, so not really up to date, but how about the people who shoot abortionists? Haven't they generally claimed to be Christian?
Rogues do it from behind.

#5 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 06:24 PM

Mentioned, dismissed as individual insane persons. I will ante with the continual terror campaign against abortion clinics and their clients and workers, as proof that it is deliberate political agenda in order to terrorize others, all form of it not being exatly illegal but pushing it all the time.

I want to show him that in USA there is a significant mainstream faction of Christianity that very much wants and does wield earthly power and extremely intolerant of non-believers, to the point of condoning violence.

#6 Laufey

Posted 08 January 2007 - 06:33 PM

Hm, afraid I can't be any more helpful then - I don't really know what is considered mainstream or not.

Anyway, I suspect that even if you provided such an example, this person would dismiss any such group as 'non Christian'.
Rogues do it from behind.

#7 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 08:29 PM

Well, he goes by the holy scripts or the religions and the teachings of their founders

Picking and choosing. I remember my old discussion board nemesis going on about how you "can't pick and choose" what parts of Scripture to accept, and yet he came up with very different interpretations about, say, tolerance for others, than this guy. What about the Old Testament God Who literally says that He tortured the Egyptians to show them He's the greatest?

I agree that the character of founders and holy scripture can have an effect, but studying just a bit of comparative religion (which term I'm using basically as a translation for what I've studied, uskontotiede) will show that there's much more going on. People from different religions but with the same kinds of attitude towards the religion (say, fundamentalists) are often more similar to each other than others of their own respective religions.

Have I recounted on this board that anecdote about Buddha...? How according to some story, when he was dying, his disciples asked him what to do with the body, and he told them to never mind that and get on with their enlightenment. Whether that was true or not, what actually happened was that these shrine thingies, I think the term is stupa, started getting erected around relics of Buddha. Eventually, just the buildings themselves became to be regarded as holy or objects or worship or something. Anyway, way to follow the founder's own advice, guys.

#8 Guest_Ursula_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 11:02 PM

I want to show him that in USA there is a significant mainstream faction of Christianity that very much wants and does wield earthly power and extremely intolerant of non-believers, to the point of condoning violence.

IMO the United States doesn't really have a homogeneous culture. There is no mainstream faction of Christianity that cuts across all the regions.

One place where I used to live, for a very very short time, Roman Catholicism was considered the wrong type of Christianity. Most folks thereabouts were Baptist or Methodist--though the kids "rebelling" against their parents' beliefs wound up as Unitarians. ??? I don't know what Unitarians are. I don't really care, either. It's their business.

Where I currently reside, most Christians are (Roman) Catholic. There are some Baptist churches too, and a smattering of Lutheran, Episcopalian, and Presbyterian churches, but if you say you're going to church, you're likely going to the Catholic church.

That being said, if I were to wear a cross or rosary beads to work, that could be grounds for disciplinary action being initiated against me for trying to "impose" my faith on others. :wink: Whatever. It's no big for me since I wouldn't do such a thing, because I frankly don't want anybody at my workplace to know very much about me on a personal level--especially something as intimate as my faith.

It seems like the extremists or bigots in my current place of residence are more in the "how dare you be a Christian" camp than in the "worship Jesus or burn" camp. Not this year, but last year the local news was full of reports of kids getting suspended for telling other (fellow Christians), "Merry Christmas," in school hallways. Kids getting sent home from school for wearing inappropriate clothing (Christmas-themed). I don't know whether the anti-Christian bigots have toned down their persecution, or whether their buddies in the mainstream press just aren't reporting these abuses anymore. Whatever. It's still ridiculous. Wherever those main-stream U.S. Christians are who are wielding earthly power, they don't seem to be here.

#9 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 08 January 2007 - 11:35 PM

IMO the United States doesn't really have a homogeneous culture.


Of course it doesn't. What I have in mind are those Religious Right type of Christians. As I understand they are definitely not Roman Catholic, and are usually Baptists (?). The kind of people Oyster Girl has told us about.


It seems like the extremists or bigots in my current place of residence are more in the "how dare you be a Christian" camp than in the "worship Jesus or burn" camp. Not this year, but last year the local news was full of reports of kids getting suspended for telling other (fellow Christians), "Merry Christmas," in school hallways. Kids getting sent home from school for wearing inappropriate clothing (Christmas-themed). I don't know whether the anti-Christian bigots have toned down their persecution, or whether their buddies in the mainstream press just aren't reporting these abuses anymore. Whatever. It's still ridiculous. Wherever those main-stream U.S. Christians are who are wielding earthly power, they don't seem to be here.


Let me guess: you live in a part of USA were the majority are liberals? And rather extreme ones at that. At the moment, there are leftist powers in Finland trying to impose the same sort of political correct nonsense here and I am working with a MP candidate one of whose main themes is opposing this.

#10 Guest_Ursula_*

Posted 09 January 2007 - 12:06 AM

E!!! Long time, no see. Happy New Year, btw. :wink:

Of course it doesn't. What I have in mind are those Religious Right type of Christians. As I understand they are definitely not Roman Catholic, and are usually Baptists (?). The kind of people Oyster Girl has told us about.

I remember that parody website she shared. It was a real hoot. And there was some of that sort of stuff going on where it's not too removed from reality, either.

Afaik, though, that's mostly in the South. While the South is a pretty nice place to visit and all--and it really is--I don't know that its impact on "mainstream" culture is overwhelmingly huge either.

Let me guess: you live in a part of USA were the majority are liberals?

Bingo!

And rather extreme ones at that.

It seems that way to me. :D Ah, but apparently in their eyes they are not extremists at all...and that is what makes me crazy. What's so difficult about just leaving folks alone?! Too many people think they are uniquely qualified to tell others how to live their lives. They sure as heck wouldn't be too pleased if someone else were to return the favor.

At the moment, there are leftist powers in Finland trying to impose the same sort of political correct nonsense here and I am working with a MP candidate one of whose main themes is opposing this.

Well, I wish you good luck on that one. :D

#11 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 12 January 2007 - 01:04 AM

E!!! Long time, no see. Happy New Year, btw. :D


The same, the same, kiddo.

Afaik, though, that's mostly in the South. While the South is a pretty nice place to visit and all--and it really is


I have no doubt. My good friend has visited the theocratic Iran and met so nice and wonderful people there. As long as you are a guest, there are not problems. People can have an opinion that is apalling from your POV, and still be generous and warm when you are not talking about that topic. (And then some are just self-righteous and Evil).


And rather extreme ones at that.

It seems that way to me. :lol: Ah, but apparently in their eyes they are not extremists at all...and that is what makes me crazy. What's so difficult about just leaving folks alone?! Too many people think they are uniquely qualified to tell others how to live their lives. They sure as heck wouldn't be too pleased if someone else were to return the favor.


That is the leftist false (IMO, of course) approach. That there should be some sort of neutral state of not-being-anything-or-from-anywhere-lest-it-offend-someone.

Being offended is an emotion. Not a pleasant one, but nothing a sane and mature person can't get over with. Nowadays, where 'liberals', as you call them in USA, have power, being offended is a political tool of power. I think it should be denounced back into being an emotion you just have to deal with.

At the moment, there are leftist powers in Finland trying to impose the same sort of political correct nonsense here and I am working with a MP candidate one of whose main themes is opposing this.

Well, I wish you good luck on that one. ;)


We are only 5 mil people. If *we* don't look after our unique culture, heritage and lifestyle, who on earth will. (Some people say we should give into multiculturalism and apologetism, because in the time of colonialism, when we were a piss-poor part of Sweden, we produced tar which was used for the boats of the colonialists so colonialism is really our fault :lol:)

#12 Guest_No One of Consequence_*

Posted 12 January 2007 - 08:04 AM

As one might expect, as a Christian I have wrestled with this issue and while I am sympathetic with your friend's position, I disagree with him. Here is my reasoning.

Jesus Christ did not come to earth to found a religion. He did not view himself as one of a competing number of prophets/holy men. He was not (in his own mind) the guy with the best brand, but the son of God, alone capable of restoring correct human relationships with God. A close reading of the most widely accepted teachings of Jesus (ie the gospels) show no indication that he had it in mind to found any religion. He ordained few if any rituals and the few rituals we can trace to him (baptism, the Lord's Supper are the only two I can think of off the top of my head) were nowhere near the complexity or level 'sanctification' that we know of them today. So here's my conclusion.

Jesus does not want a Christian religion. Religion is a set of human rules and ideas for communicating with the divine. Christ wants humans to communicate with the divine through him, not through religion. Christians should preach Christ, not Christianity. Jesus led a call to repentence and reconcilliation, not conversion. Any religion will attract those who believe and those who just want to use the virtue of the religion as a cloak for their own evils. Jesus himself made an observation to this effect in one of his parables. The measure of a believer in Christ is their relationship to Christ, not their denomination, and that's something that cannot be measured easily by humans. The best we can do is say that certain actions are not in keeping with Jesus teachings; beyond that, only God can know.

#13 Guest_Lord E_*

Posted 12 January 2007 - 08:23 AM

Thank you, No One! You said it perfectly. That is exactly what I think.

It is so frustrating to explain to people that it really doesn't *matter* what you think about homosexuality or abort or whatever. Christianity is not *about* that. The only people who are truly lost to me are the ones who think there is not evil or need for repentance in this world. Because, for them, I can really not explain why people would need God or Christ. For the others it is mostly that they don't want to assume a lifestyle and set of opinions they don't find appealing and, IMO mistakenly, think is necessary in order to be a Christian.

#14 Guest_Clight_*

Posted 12 January 2007 - 10:58 AM

I don't like this "we" thing anyway, even if we were someone else. Did I colonialize anyone? Would I have colonialized anyone if I was from some country that did that in the past? If colonialization was going on now and I was the person I am now, would I be supporting it? Does it actually matter for me now that if I lived at a more ignorant time the limitedness of the understanding of my culture about others might have led me to condone colonialization?

Bottom line: Why do people feel they need to feel collective guilt? Is it because they can't manage genuine compassion for fellow human beings who are suffering from something having happened in the past? Does it need to be their "own fault" so that they can see the need to help others and respect them? The fact that people try to be politically correct by not giving the majority view equality seems to point at something like this rather than that those who do it would actually view the minorities as equal and people like everyone else.

#15 Guest_Reality-Helix_*

Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:10 PM

I kinda feel the same way there. I am a native American. As in, I was born in America. As were my parents, and their parents before them, yea, unto the seventh generation. Am I of the decent of those popularly known as "Native Americans"? Nope. But heck if I did anything to them. I have nothing to apoligize to anyone about, and I'm not about to be forced into guilt over something I didn't do.

#16 Guest_Serena_*

Posted 08 July 2009 - 05:53 PM

Thank you, No One. You said it well.

Luckly, I'm from Canada, and there's not a lot of really fundamentalist Christians. (At least, not a lot that make huge waves).

I'm actually having the opposite problem, as Ursula mentioned as well. I can't say 'Merry Christmas' any more without risking getting into trouble *sigh*

Now, most people don't mind and just take it as a greeting, but I've had one or two people explode on me about it.

*grumble*




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Skin Designed By Evanescence at IBSkin.com