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Reply Counts and Click Counts


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#1 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:21 PM

We've heard for years about how divisive the distribution of popularity in the Attic has been. Popularity, either as simmering resentment at not being "properly appreciated" or as active venom aimed at a particular person who happens to be at the top of the wheel at a given moment, has been at the heart of every blow-up I've seen.

I've reached the point where I consider the counters to be little more than a tool being misused as a weapon.

This is your chance to convince me that there's a good reason not to pull the counters off the index and search results pages. If I do remove them, I'll arrange for the topic author to have access to their own numbers. You just won't get to see the forum-wide "scorecard".

So talk to me. Does the ability to look at other people's numbers serve any purpose except as a firestarter? Is there a better way to provide for that need than the counters?

At the moment, I know of one: the unreliability of the "new post" markers. I propose adding the ability to search for "all posts within the last X hours" as a solution.

#2 Guest_IriaZenn_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:31 PM

I've never cared how many clicks or reads that other people get, it never bothered me. I like seeing it on my own stories though, since it does let me know that people may actually be reading my story. But I still like seeing how well other people are doing too. Argh, I'm not a good person to talk about stuff. :)

#3 Guest_Serena_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:56 PM

Yeah, I feel pretty much the same. I've never really cared how many reads other stories get. . . I would like to be able to see my own, though, if you do go through with pulling them off.

If you think it would help settle things down, then by all means. I don't really care one way or the other.

#4 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 06:27 PM

I've never cared how many clicks or reads that other people get, it never bothered me. I like seeing it on my own stories though, since it does let me know that people may actually be reading my story. But I still like seeing how well other people are doing too.

That's always been my own attitude. I look at read/comment counts because it's often a tip off that trouble may be brewing in a thread. The only one in recent weeks that I noticed well enough to recall was Weyoun's Bruce Campbell story, and that only because I had passed the link on to someone I knew would appreciate it, who then publicized it very effectively indeed.

Argh, I'm not a good person to talk about stuff. :)

You're reassuring me, actually. This whole business is so important to some people that I keep wondering what I'm missing.

You, too, Serena. *waves*

#5 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 06:32 PM

At the moment, I know of one: the unreliability of the "new post" markers.


Exactly, and that's a big reason why I am against it right now - I love reading comments made on other stories, not only mine, so I don't want to miss out on something, or to pass on a budding fluff thread.

If the 'replies' and 'views' counters are seperated (sorry, I don't know how the software works :lol:), then you could remove the view count from being visible right this very moment, but the reply count is something that I would like to see being kept - at least for now, because otherwise it would make tracking new posts more problematic.

I propose adding the ability to search for "all posts within the last X hours" as a solution.


Make it customizable, with 'within the last X weeks' being an option as well. Sometimes people have no access to the Attic for days or even weeks, but some of these people (points at self) still want to catch up with *all* the posts made since their last visit. :)

Basically, tracking the new posts is my main concern as well. Other than that, I don't care about those counters one way or another. Ideally, it is something nobody should care about, but then again, we don't live in an ideal world, do we? :roll:

#6 Guest_Serena_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 06:37 PM

Theo makes a good point. I would like to keep the reply counters too.

And I haven't had a problem with the 'new post' markers . . . *shrug* They've always seemed to work for me.

#7 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 07:00 PM

Theo makes a good point. I would like to keep the reply counters too.

Instead of replacing them as a means of tracking down new posts with some other user interface?

It's always seemed an awkward way to track down new posts, to me. I intend to add the "last X hours/days" feature regardless of what I eventually decide about the counters.

And I haven't had a problem with the 'new post' markers . . . *shrug* They've always seemed to work for me.

They're vulnerable to problems along the network and to browser crashes. If you end a "session" for any reason, your "new post" markers are set to "read". Some people's ISPs are set up in ways that it almost impossible to maintain a reliable session for very long. AOL is one of the most notorious, but Earthlink and other big ISPs have also had their issues.

#8 Guest_Silrana_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 07:44 PM

We've heard for years about how divisive the distribution of popularity in the Attic has been. Popularity, either as simmering resentment at not being "properly appreciated" or as active venom aimed at a particular person who happens to be at the top of the wheel at a given moment, has been at the heart of every blow-up I've seen.


I don't care about the counts, I never have. But anyone who is competitive enough to care is going to look in the threads of the writers they watch and count the comments. And the day the "Why aren't the really deserving writers getting comments?" whine starts up again, I swear to God it will be all I can do not to be up in a tower with a rifle.

#9 Guest_IriaZenn_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 08:09 PM

We've heard for years about how divisive the distribution of popularity in the Attic has been. Popularity, either as simmering resentment at not being "properly appreciated" or as active venom aimed at a particular person who happens to be at the top of the wheel at a given moment, has been at the heart of every blow-up I've seen.


I don't care about the counts, I never have. But anyone who is competitive enough to care is going to look in the threads of the writers they watch and count the comments. And the day the "Why aren't the really deserving writers getting comments?" whine starts up again, I swear to God it will be all I can do not to be up in a tower with a rifle.


Can I help? :) That's one thing that makes me very mad, then they start on the cannon b.s. and argh... I'm not going to start a rant here. :roll:

Anyhow. The way I look at it is I know that I'm not going to have as many counts or clicks as other people like Laufey, Theodur, Silrana or anyone who's been here for such a long time. I see that people who have alot of clicks have established themselves as writers and it gives hope that one day people will read my crap... I mean stories and enjoy them as much as other peoples. Of course seeing that people have read stuff of mine and people who I'm friendly with me makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

#10 Guest_Ursula_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 08:21 PM

You know what? I don't really care one way or the other about the counters. I find them convenient (especially when trying to host a quiz, figure out if someone's responded to something I've said in a thread, etc.), but I can live without them if that's the decision that's reached. :)

That being said, however, it is my *hunch* that individuals who are complaining about click counts will find some other issue to latch onto.

I don't understand the argument myself. I read stories because I like the writing style (or because brevity has been promised--a big selling point for me), not because of a number on a screen.

#11 Laufey

Posted 27 March 2005 - 08:25 PM

I've never cared how many clicks or reads that other people get, it never bothered me. I like seeing it on my own stories though, since it does let me know that people may actually be reading my story. But I still like seeing how well other people are doing too.

That's always been my own attitude. I look at read/comment counts because it's often a tip off that trouble may be brewing in a thread. The only one in recent weeks that I noticed well enough to recall was Weyoun's Bruce Campbell story, and that only because I had passed the link on to someone I knew would appreciate it, who then publicized it very effectively indeed.


That's probably my own main use for it as well - as a mod, to see if there seems to be trouble going on somewhere. Otherwise, I rarely even notice how many views somebody else's story has. Certainly I don't waste my free time keeping some sort of score about it.

I do like to be able to see my own though, sometimes the 'new reply' feature doesn't work, and I don't want to miss something.
Rogues do it from behind.

#12 Darkwolf Shadowwalker

Posted 27 March 2005 - 08:51 PM

The 'times read' count really doesnt matter to me at all, but I do like having the reply count. Lets me see if people have responded to my stories, to my respones on their stories, or inother threads, without having to open the page, scroll down, and see if anything new is there

#13 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 09:06 PM

The 'times read' count really doesnt matter to me at all, but I do like having the reply count. Lets me see if people have responded to my stories, to my respones on their stories, or inother threads, without having to open the page, scroll down, and see if anything new is there


Definitely agreed, that's how I use the reply count as well. I mean, I can live without it, for sure, but it's convenient, and... well, frankly, I like that it's there. :)

Then again, Oyster Girl asked if there was a good reason not to pull the counters, and I suppose whether I like it or not isn't really a valid reason, ey? :roll:

#14 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 10:45 PM

I don't care about the counts, I never have. But anyone who is competitive enough to care is going to look in the threads of the writers they watch and count the comments.

Yeah, but if they come to me complaining about their numbers in comparison with someone else's, they'll just be making themselves look foolish.

It's the difference between having something pushed in your face and seeking it out. If you go looking for trouble, don't expect sympathy when you find it.

And the day the "Why aren't the really deserving writers getting comments?" whine starts up again, I swear to God it will be all I can do not to be up in a tower with a rifle.

If I do this, it will be the end of my patience with this issue. The people who want this claim that it will give all stories a more equal chance of being read and improve the chances of new writers gathering an audience. I can't disagree with that goal. I'm not convinced that this change would have an impact on anyone's reading and commenting patterns, but I'm willing to at least weigh the pros and cons of giving it a try.

I can't make people like someone. I can't make people like their writing, and I can't make people comment. My term for the demand that people be forced to comment on neglected stories is not suitable for a public board.

What I can do is take away the toys when people start hitting each other with them.

I'd like to find a replacement for any real purpose that these numbers serve. I think that the "posts in last X hours" list that I'm setting up will be a suitable replacement, but I won't make that assumption until it's in place and people have a chance to try it out. I think y'all will like it better than the replies counter; I've found a similar function to be very convenient on other boards.

#15 Guest_Jeannette_*

Posted 27 March 2005 - 10:59 PM

We've heard for years about how divisive the distribution of popularity in the Attic has been. Popularity, either as simmering resentment at not being "properly appreciated" or as active venom aimed at a particular person who happens to be at the top of the wheel at a given moment, has been at the heart of every blow-up I've seen.

I've reached the point where I consider the counters to be little more than a tool being misused as a weapon.


Like you and Laufey I use the counters to see whether trouble appears to be brewing. But personally I'm all for finding another solution to using them.

IMO people like 'em because they can see how their stories are doing. The problem is that often those very same folks get upset when they see other's stories "doing better" click-countwise than their own. This is nothing new. These divisions and discussions have been going on for years and I sincerely doubt this will stop as long as the counts are available. However the one thing that has changed is that there is more and more public comment dissing popular authors or complaining about their stories being buried or ignored. Not that that's entirely unexpected. After all, it's human nature to feel competitive and the counters provide the data which is hard to ignore no matter how mature one is.

I would simply say that if we do want this to be a board where people really focus upon writing for their own enjoyment and not for the comments they receive, then we as individuals need to focus on what matters --writing for ourselves and of course, reading each other's stories and enjoying them -- not based upon counts, not based upon the number of responses we've seen the story garner, but simply because we've tried (or are willing to try a new author) and we like the individual's work.

As I've mentioned to to you, I'd like to see this Board move towards a format where each author has his or her own "page" for story posting and a guest book for comments. I do understand that this would require some effort in terms of identifying software that will allow us to automate as much as possible. But this format does focus the individuals upon reading and writing rather than upon popularity, the authors do receive comments and chats/discussions go into the chat forums. And I would add that I've seen far fewer issues regarding who's stories are read or not on those sites than on sites that do post counts.

j.

#16 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 28 March 2005 - 12:27 AM

You know what? I don't really care one way or the other about the counters. I find them convenient (especially when trying to host a quiz, figure out if someone's responded to something I've said in a thread, etc.), but I can live without them if that's the decision that's reached. :roll:

That being said, however, it is my *hunch* that individuals who are complaining about click counts will find some other issue to latch onto.

Some of them, yes. I just hope it'll take them a long while to find a compelling enough argument to convince me to consider further changes on their behalf. :wink:

I'd much rather be working on the Novels Pages or (dare I say it out loud?) my own writing.

I don't understand the argument myself. I read stories because I like the writing style (or because brevity has been promised--a big selling point for me), not because of a number on a screen.

The argument is that new people have a tendency to explore the most popular stories first. I can't argue with that; at most fic sites, it's a pretty good pointer toward the higher quality stories.

This is where a lot of the arguments lose me, because an assumption starts creeping in that the most popular stories here don't deserve to be. There are popular stories in every fandom that don't meet my personal criteria of "good"; that doesn't give me the right to demand that they not be written/shared.

#17 Guest_Oyster Girl_*

Posted 28 March 2005 - 01:03 AM

As I've mentioned to to you, I'd like to see this Board move towards a format where each author has his or her own "page" for story posting and a guest book for comments. I do understand that this would require some effort in terms of identifying software that will allow us to automate as much as possible. But this format does focus the individuals upon reading and writing rather than upon popularity, the authors do receive comments and chats/discussions go into the chat forums. And I would add that I've seen far fewer issues regarding who's stories are read or not on those sites than on sites that do post counts.

As I told you in that same conversation, I've had something similar in mind since I first started evaluating software shortly after I accepted the mod position here. We've had a few distractions along the way. :wink: I finally had to concede that I needed to be evaluating for ease in customizing instead of for included features.

I've settled on a software. The next step is to see if it will work with our current site software or if we'll have to upgrade the site first. Then it's just a matter of making the time to experiment until it's set it up like I want. Oh, and a matter of the software's author fixing a couple of problems in the new, expanded permissions routine. When he has that working, it'll have almost everything on my critical want list.

I've tapped some help on getting it set up, so maybe my wonky schedule won't continue to slow us down. As I believe I've also mentioned, I've been told I'm welcome to work as much overtime as I'm able over the next month.

I'm considering this step as a way to create some breathing space. This will probably take a few hours, including testing, versus the several weeks we're probably still looking at to get the archive ready for prime time.

#18 Guest_Jeannette_*

Posted 28 March 2005 - 01:11 AM

[quote name="Oyster Girl"][quote name="Jeannette"]As I've mentioned to to you, I'd like to see this Board move towards a format where each author has his or her own "page" for story posting and a guest book for comments. I do understand that this would require some effort in terms of identifying software that will allow us to automate as much as possible. But this format does focus the individuals upon reading and writing rather than upon popularity, the authors do receive comments and chats/discussions go into the chat forums. And I would add that I've seen far fewer issues regarding who's stories are read or not on those sites than on sites that do post counts.

[quote]As I told you in that same conversation, I've had something similar in mind since I first started evaluating software shortly after I accepted the mod position here. We've had a few distractions along the way. :wink: I finally had to concede that I needed to be evaluating for ease in customizing instead of for included features.[/quote]

Yep you did say that. I wanted to put it out here though so that others could comment as well since you were asking for feedback. :roll:

[quote]I've settled on a software. The next step is to see if it will work with our current site software or if we'll have to upgrade the site first. Then it's just a matter of making the time to experiment until it's set it up like I want. Oh, and a matter of the software's author fixing a couple of problems in the new, expanded permissions routine. When he has that working, it'll have almost everything on my critical want list.[/quote]

Excellent!! :wink:

[quote]I've tapped some help on getting it set up, so maybe my wonky schedule won't continue to slow us down. As I believe I've also mentioned, I've been told I'm welcome to work as much overtime as I'm able over the next month.[/quote]

Wonderful! And don't forget your fellow mods are also available to help as necessary. I don't claim to be a programmer but I can deal with hand coding as necessary or dumping old files into a db format etc.

j

#19 Guest_Q'alooaith_*

Posted 28 March 2005 - 01:24 AM

I don't mind either way..

I think replys should still be visible though for keeping tack of comments it's very useful, views is totaly inacurate though and shouldn't be publicly vissible at least..

Though is it possible to log views, so we know how many diffrent people have been reading, or just how many diffrent IP's have checked them out.. Not saying we should know who, just know how many diffrent people because that's the info that views dosnt give, 14 views could be one person rereading multiple times..

#20 Guest_Clovis_*

Posted 28 March 2005 - 02:20 AM

Just echoing what several others have said: I don't give a darn about the click counters, but I do enjoy the post replies feature.

-C




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