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Omegas XXVIII: Opine


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#21 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 29 December 2004 - 08:58 AM

Ahem… he speaks in ALL CAPS. I think that says it all, really. ;)


That he's loud has nothing to do with his intellect. My point was that Minsc too uses complex vocabulary so it's not fair to say that complex vocabulary is a way to judge intellect unless you apply it equally.


Sorry, I took a look at his banters and there’s no complex vocab there. Whatever there is, is probably whispered to him by Boo and he uses it without understanding its meaning, at least that’s how it looks to me.



Gack. Well that's what I get for boosting everyone's stats as soon as I get them in-game. I can see why they would ignore that rule though if they intended characters like Aerie and Jaheira to be crucial team members.



Boosting Jaheira’s Wisdom to where it should be by all rights would have made more sense to me – certainly more than dropping this rule. It makes Wis a dump stat even for a priest. :?:


Waaaaaait... Is what you're saying that the rule that says unless a priest has a wisdom of a certain number they can't cast 6th and 7th level spells is nonsensible? It makes much more sense in terms of fairness and making certain Wisdom isn't a dump stat.


No, I said that the rule should have stayed, but then Jaheira’s Wis should have been at least 17 so it would not have affected her anyways.


You *do* know who wrote Aerie’s content for the game, yes? ;)


I'm not going to hero worship someone if there's a chance they did a shoddy job making all aspects of a characters representation make sense. Someone must have screwed up with Aerie otherwise she wouldn't be so inconsistant. Her character sheet says LG, I see her, especially when in conflict with Jaheira, as LN with a delusion that she is good, like un-reformed Anomen. Her sheet says Int/Wis 16, she doesn't show that sort of mental capacity in game dialogue. So either someone screwed up taking down statistics or someone screwed up writing down dialogue. In my stories I try to mediate these inconsistancies, but my point is they shouldn't be there in the first place.


Okay, fair enough, I am fairly certain that Dave G. doesn’t really care if you are critical of his writing or not. ;) Besides, to me there is no real inconsistency about Aerie in her game dialogues, it’s more in reconciling her dialogues with the character sheet and that may have well been designed by someone else and without any real attempt to match it to her dialogues. That’s one possibility.


Well, I have some trouble accepting Jaheira’s epilogues as being in-character, and I’m not the only one who feels that way. I think that the idea of the PC as being the only one who can make Jaheira move on in life after Khalid is downright ridiculous – to me it seems contradictory to how her character has been presented up to that point.


The non-romanced epilogue for me works only if the PC leaves her for godhood – then it does make sense.


Which is what it may have been intended for. Emphasis on may. In that case they should have had for all four romances a third possible ending. It's as much a part of her character as portrayed through the in-game text as Aerie's temper-tantrums or Anomen's intolerance. If you're going to disregard Jaheira's ending as out-of-character you'd have to consider whether or not all other unusual, but otherwise in-character actions by other NPC's reall are out-of-character as well.


And are you implying that I am not considering that?


Well, umm, I don’t know, I think that in most stories she is already being portrayed that way. Certainly, if she would be portrayed as an impeccable fighter and a fountain of never-erring wisdom who never does anything wrong, aka, Mary Sue – then I would hate her guts. Me, I especially love the portrayals where she is more flawed, it makes her even more human – and certainly my version of her is very much flawed.


I've not read your story very much, I'm afraid. I don't have quite enough time to catch up at the moment, but what I'm saying is that the number of stories where the PC immediately turns to Jaheira for advice (or gets it regardless) and is significantly positively influenced by what she says is high. I'm no exception, particularly early on. Likewise there are a huge number of stories where Jaheira wins the majority of the verbal sparring match she gets in. Mary Sue? No, that's Charname's job (I'm also a but guilty here, but I work on it), but she's still most often portrayed as the victor and to even things out I'd like to see more stories where her actions don't tend to have a positive ring to them.


Well… of course, you can write your stories however you wish to, but it’s just that seeing Jaheira giving an obviously bad advice or not being able to grasp a fairly obvious thing will be something that always strikes me painfully uncharacteristic for her.


And here in Alpha’s tale, she wasn’t exactly able to help Lynn with her problem, was she? So she *doesn't* always say the right thing, after all.


First off, Alpha, I like your Jaheira, so don't take any of this to heart if you read it.


No, Jaheira doesn't help, but she's still -right-, and I can imagine that as things go along it will turn out that what she said will have a positive influence. That's great of Falynn and co. but what I'd really, really like to see is Jaheira be wrong or give bad advice, something that has a negative effect on the other characters.


The thing is, you have to be pretty dumb and very low on empathy to give that very wrong kind of advice in this situation. It’s just one of the perfect situations where you obviously expect Jaheira being able to relate and give a helpful advice – hell, you don’t come seeking her advice when you’re being beaten in scrabble or chess or whatever – she’s not so good at helping there. But Falynn’s problem *is* something that Jaheira can help with, so having her goof up here would leave me with a ‘wait, this doesn’t make sense’ kind of a reaction.


Yes, I’m afraid I don’t really see your point. She can be both a competent fighter and a wise person and insightful advisor, but she can also be flawed and make mistakes at the same time. You don’t really need to consciously dumb her down in order to make her more interesting, I think.


Not all the time, no. That would be just as utterly dull. My point, just to make it explicit, is that I've yet to see one of her mistakes have as much of an impact as one of her successes. Her mistakes are usually small, her flaws nothing terribly bad and in the end the majority of her portrayals are overwhelmingly positive. She is, in fact, one of the few characters that I see consistently depicted so positively. I may just not be reading the right stories, but that's my experience.


Well, the game does treat her very roughly throughout the whole BG2, so to me it’s no real wonder that some people feel sympathetic towards her and are more inclined to portray her positively. I wish you luck with your story and your alternative portrayal of her, though. ;)

#22 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 29 December 2004 - 09:38 AM

2. I like Blue's point about how you never really see Jaheira making a royal cluster-fu@$-up. It just seems that such things never happen. It's a valid point. I'd have to agree with that assessment, and I also have to say that I think it'd be interesting to see. She isn't infallible, but I agree that it seems that the mistakes she does make aren't these huge screw-ups that result in some really bad stuff happening. Though as a counter-argument, I can't recall all that many characters, whether game NPCs or original, that have done something unbelievably bad... except maybe Imoen breaking that little cube and releasing the multiverse-eater. :?:


Or Edwin summoning a cornugon or Imoen summoning Mr. Stay Puft… ;)

But seriously... how many times have we seen -any- character make a call that atrociously bad? I can't really think of any, so I don't think it's just Jaheira that's "guilty" of that kind of thing.


I’m just not sure what is meant by giving an atrociously bad call… what kind of mistake do you expect her to make anyway? And I think Alpha more than rightfully points out that none of the NPC’s really makes any horribly bad calls.

Okay… so I remember one situation from the game. Remember the bit where you re-enter the Spellhold asylum from its roof and face Saemon who recommends you to enlist the help of the loony mages. A few characters make their interjections here – Anomen and Edwin both suggest to ignore Saemon and attack Irenicus head on, brash youths that they are, making a call that leads to the death of the whole group. Jaheira and Viconia however suggest that you do take up on Saemon’s advice there.

However, this is one situation where Jaheira could have easily given the wrong kind of advice and I would not have called her stupid for that.

3.

I'm certainly not saying I'd trust her over Jaheira in terms of good advice, I'm just saying that I see Jaheira as being just as capable of making errors in judgement. I see them all as capable of making errors in judgement.


Interesting point. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it, though. Is a lot of Aerie's "stupidity" simply a result of lack of proper upbringing and general inexperience with the world as a whole? Yes. Yes, it is. Given similar circumstances, do I think Jaheira would make the same exact mistakes? No, I don't think so. Given the lack of experience and what-not, do I see her making irrational, impulsive, and downright boneheaded decisions? Yes, I do. But I still think that she's got a bit more of a head on her shoulders, naturally, than Aerie does. Now, can I back that up? I suppose I can't... it's just a gut feeling, more than anything. I honestly doubt there's "textual" evidence to support what I'm saying. Thankfully, this isn't an academic treatise, and so I think I can get away with saying something that's more "opinion" than "fact." :D


I don’t think it’s something that can be backed up or that needs to be backed up, it’s just something how we perceive the characters and that has nothing to do with logic or textual evidence or anything. I agree though – for one thing, I could never see Jaheira acting the same way as Aerie even when she was young and immature. I doubt Jaheira ever whined about tired feet and complained that no one ever told her that adventuring would be soooo hard… ;)

(Nod) For one, though, I think it's rather painfully obvious that there's something wrong with Falynn, and I'm not just saying that because I'm the writer, and you guys are the readers. I think even the other characters on the squad would be able to see something was up, too. Valygar's pretty perceptive, I'm sure he noticed something. Nalia seemed to, as well. Even Minsc did. That being the case, it's not surprising that Jaheira would pick up on something being wrong and would wonder why Falynn refused was consciously refusing to mention it.


It would have seemed rather strange if she hadn’t picked up on this and hadn’t made an attempt to confront Falynn about it.

5.

About Jaheira...I think she is wise, and more intelligent than her stats would suggest. I don't think she's infallible though, because I think her stubborness and strong convictions sometimes prevent her from rethinking and re-evaluating people and ideas.


Sounds about right to me. She's strongly opinionated, and utterly convinced that she's right a lot of the time. It's hard for her to admit when she makes a mistake (and she does make them on occasion), but I think she will make that kind of admission eventually. But to reiterate the point that's already been made, it doesn't really seem as if she's ever made a really bad call that, say, got someone killed, or whatever. But then again, there aren't that many characters that -have- done something like that, anyway... at least not that I can think of.


Well, I rather believe that she blames herself for so many deaths throughout the game – Khalid, the Harpers that the group have to slay – I mean, don’t you think that having her make a decision that leads to another death would be quite a bit over the top?

I am not really compelled to browse through Jaheira’s banters to dig up those where her intelligence becomes apparent, but I remember quite a few of them to suggest that it has to be pretty high.


Sorry, Theo, but I think I gotta side with Blue on this one. Proficiency with language isn't necessarily a sign of intelligence. Yes, obviously the two are related, but language is, I think, a skill, and it's something that can be learned. Given enough time, I think just about anyone can pick it up. So, while communicating in grunts and such is probably a good sign that you're... not all there upstairs, I don't think that using big words is necessarily a sign that you're a genius. :D


And I wasn’t trying to make her a genius, really. But as I said previously, that and a few other things that I perceive from her dialogue makes me believe her Int is higher than 10. Would you really agree that she is less intelligent that Int-12 dwarf-genius Korgan? ;)

But yeah... like it or not, the epilogues we're given are "canonical..." Now yes, the very essence of what we do is "breaking" canon, but even so, since what we do is fanfiction, we're pretty much constrained by what's been written in "official" sources. Now I'm not saying that our characters have to be written exactly the way they were written in the game, but I don't think it's entirely fair for us to just say "Well, I don't agree with that part, so I'm just gonna ignore it."


Well, I do take those epilogues in consideration, but you seriously can’t be suggesting that we hold onto those epilogues vigorously in our writing, right? I mean, think about it – would it make sense if I would use Jaheira’s romanced epilogue as a guideline for her post-ToB relationship with Theo? The one where they both wander around for years adventuring on their own? Does that make any sense considering how I’ve portrayed their relationship so far? No… it does not make any sense at all. What I’m trying to say is that I’ve read the epilogues, I know what they are like, I know I hate them and think they are stupid and I will disregard every one of them in my writing.

Or did you really expect my Edwin being turned into a barmaid by the end of ToB? Tough luck if you did. ;)

Similarly, if everyone would hold onto those epilogues like that, I would not read any story which features a female Bhaalspawn, because by that logic it means that Jaheira will end up lonely and depressed for the rest of her life and I don’t really care a shit for that kind of outcome.

Wait… you have a female ‘Bhaalspawn’… aaaaaaghh! Guess I should stop reading Omegas now… ;)

Hey, and you do know that there’s lots of people out there who consider the BG novels “canonical” and the character portrayal in them being the correct one. :) heck, just read some of the glamorous reviews on Amazon.com. :)

I don't think I'm making my point very well, but the way I see it, since we're working with established characters, even if we change things, we have to keep a lot of the stuff the same... enough that our version of a character is actually recognizable as that character, and not just another, completely new character with the same name.


I doubt that giving the character a different ending than suggested in the game epilogues counts as “mischaracterization”. :D

#23 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 30 December 2004 - 01:51 AM

Or Edwin summoning a cornugon or Imoen summoning Mr. Stay Puft…


Well, in my (Imoen's defense), I'd have to say that the situations are kinda different. :D

After all, Imoen's summoning the marshmallow man was totally accidental. Edwin knew what he was getting into, but in his arrogance, figured he could control the silly thing. That's exactly the kind of thing I think Blue is talking about... characters making decisions that go bad because they're so convinced that they're right, and that they can do no wrong. Edwin strikes me as the kind of character who does that stuff relatively often... at least far more often than the others.

Anyway, yes, the other Imoen's breaking of the glass cube was an accident, too, and so isn't really a good example. I was just using it to be cute. ;)

But I think Edwin's demon-summoning gone whack is exactly the kind of thing we've been suggesting, and I guess that's what I mean by an "atrociously bad call." Making mistakes is one thing, but making mistakes only because you're convinced you're right even when you're not... that's something else. I'm not sure if you see the distinction, but I think there's one there.

Well, I rather believe that she blames herself for so many deaths throughout the game – Khalid, the Harpers that the group have to slay – I mean, don’t you think that having her make a decision that leads to another death would be quite a bit over the top?


Again, i think there's a distinction to be made. Blaming herself for someone's death is one thing, but actually -being- responsible for someone's death is quite another. Does she blame herself for what happened to Khalid? Yes, she does. But is it her fault? I wouldn't say so. What could she have done? The Harpers the party has to take out... does she blame herself for that? Yes, she does. Is it her fault? Again, I'd say no. Dermin, Reviane, and the rest force the issue, and it gets to the point where Jaheira pretty much has to act in self defense. Of course she feels guilty about it... she has every reason to. But she blames herself because she somehow feels that things happened because of something she decided. She chose to back Charname, and so the fight happened. But I don't really see it being that way. She didn't have much of a choice in the matter, I don't think. She was forced by circumstances to act the way she did.

Anyway, I'm trying to think of a situation that fits the bill... as in, one that has her making a conscious mistake... something that, when she does it, seems right to her, but turns out to be horribly wrong...

The first thing that comes to mind is something like this: (And bear with me since I'm using Aerie as the one who's "right" in this example... or, actually, if you prefer, swap Aerie for Viconia. :D )

Ok... so the party gets into a scrap. Two members are severely wounded. Jaheira moves to treat one, even though Aerie/Viconia is convinced the other needs help first. But Jaheira is so convinced she's right that she follows her instinct and helps that first party member... and because she does so, the second one doesn't make it.

What are we supposed to make of a situation like that? The way I see it, she had another opinion that contradicted hers... an opinion that was just as well-informed and well-educated as hers, and yet she was so convinced she was right, that she ignored that opinion. (And yes, I know you think Aerie is neither well-informed or well-educated, but I'm trying to make a point. Bear with me. :D )

But you see what I'm getting at, I hope...

Well, I do take those epilogues in consideration, but you seriously can’t be suggesting that we hold onto those epilogues vigorously in our writing, right?


Honestly, I don't know... see, that's kinda my point. I'm not sure quite what to think. Obviously, I mess with the characters, too... even more so than you do in a lot of ways. Look at the transition to a science-fiction setting and what-not. So yes, I've made lots of modifications, and I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to say that we're not "allowed" to tweak things like that.

But part of me also thinks that since they're not originally our characters, we don't have... the right... I, guess, for lack of a better term, to say "Well, I don't like that idea, so I'm just going to ignore it."

I mean, if we just pick and choose aspects of characters that we like, and ignore aspects we don't like, and work with that, then we're not really working with the actual characters, we're working with versions that aren't necessarily "true" to the "real" ones.

(Sigh) I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. Like I said earlier, if I said that picking and choosing stuff was completely bad, well, I'd be a gross offender of that policy, but some part of my brain looks at the situation like that, (Shrug) and I just felt I should explain that that was the case.

...

I hope that made some sense. You can smack me if it didn't. :D

Wait… you have a female ‘Bhaalspawn’… aaaaaaghh! Guess I should stop reading Omegas now…


Thanks for the vote of confidence. :D

I will say this, though... she ain't ending up with Charname. That's never gonna happen. :roll:

Hey, and you do know that there’s lots of people out there who consider the BG novels “canonical” and the character portrayal in them being the correct one.


Urk.

See, this is kinda what I meant with that earlier rant, dude. :P

The BG novels are an "official" source... do they suck? Yeah, pretty much. :P But they're still "official..."

I don't know... I've actually had a similar discussion with a friend of mine on the whole Star Wars franchise. (Forgive the digression, please. :D )

Basically, he's of the mindset that "Lucas didn't write it, therefore it can't really be considered 'canon'. The Star Wars universe is George Lucas' playground, and his alone... etc. etc."

Now, I like the novels and such that have been published over the past few years. But he's right... they're "not canon" since they were written by other people. And so, strictly speaking, they have no right to play in that universe, since it's not theirs...

Emphasis on "strictly speaking." Obviously, I enjoyed the efforts of these other authors, but part of me does agree with my friend that because those books weren't written by George Lucas, that we almost can't acknowledge them as Star Wars. And the characters we see in those books, even if they have familiar names, aren't the same characters because they weren't written by the same person...

I don't know... like I said, I'm not quite sure where I stand on this, either, but I've tried to illustrate both sides of that argument. Hope I was marginally successful. :D

#24 Laufey

Posted 30 December 2004 - 02:09 AM

Well, I do take those epilogues in consideration, but you seriously can’t be suggesting that we hold onto those epilogues vigorously in our writing, right?


Honestly, I don't know... see, that's kinda my point. I'm not sure quite what to think. Obviously, I mess with the characters, too... even more so than you do in a lot of ways. Look at the transition to a science-fiction setting and what-not. So yes, I've made lots of modifications, and I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to say that we're not "allowed" to tweak things like that.


Pardon me for butting in. The way I see the epilogues is this. They are written as *possible* endings for the NPC:s, meant for a *generic* Bhaalspawn. However, in writing fanfic, our Bhaalspawn are very different people. Would it make sense that all the NPC:s have identical endings despite traveling with these radically different people? I hardly think so. Not to mention that I think it would be extremely boring if we all followed the game slavishly and never deviated at all from the plot we all know by heart.


But part of me also thinks that since they're not originally our characters, we don't have... the right... I, guess, for lack of a better term, to say "Well, I don't like that idea, so I'm just going to ignore it."


I mean, if we just pick and choose aspects of characters that we like, and ignore aspects we don't like, and work with that, then we're not really working with the actual characters, we're working with versions that aren't necessarily "true" to the "real" ones.


Well, you know, that's an old argument, both in the Attic and elsewhere. And my reply is the same as always: Who is going to decide which versions are the 'real' ones? You? Me? Theo? Somebody else entirely?

The thing is, there *is* no 'real' version, because we all perceive the characters differently. I'm not objective, no. You're not objective either. No mere mortal is capable of being perfectly objective when it comes to forming an impression about another person, be that person real or fictional.

Think about it. You meet somebody for the first time, and immediately get an impression about what that person is like. In time, you may modify that impression depending on what kind of interactions you have with the person, in what situations, and so on. Your opinion also depends on your previous experiences and your values.

Meanwhile, I meet the exact same person. I form a different opinion than you do, because my values may be different than yours, and so are my experiences.

Now, which one of us knows the 'real' version of the person?
Rogues do it from behind.

#25 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 30 December 2004 - 03:23 AM

Pardon me for butting in.


Hey, it's cool. More the merrier, right? ;)

However, in writing fanfic, our Bhaalspawn are very different people. Would it make sense that all the NPC:s have identical endings despite traveling with these radically different people? I hardly think so. Not to mention that I think it would be extremely boring if we all followed the game slavishly and never deviated at all from the plot we all know by heart.


Sure. Like I said, part of me certainly acknowledges that. At least you guys kept yours in the Realms. VH, Serena, Blue and I didn't, after all. :roll:

So, yes... part of me says "Go nuts" but that doesn't stop me from wondering, on occasion, if it's... "ok" to go nuts. (Shrug)

The thing is, there *is* no 'real' version, because we all perceive the characters differently. I'm not objective, no. You're not objective either. No mere mortal is capable of being perfectly objective when it comes to forming an impression about another person, be that person real or fictional.


Agreed... but I think the fact that these are not real people we're talking about, but fictional characters that were actually -created- by somebody, your argument doesn't apply so much. That's what I was trying to say with the whole Lucas thing. He created those characters, he set forth who they are, what they are, and all of that when he created them, so if anyone can be an authority, if anyone gets to say who the "real Luke Skywalker" is, it should be him. Likewise, if anyone gets to say who the "real Jaheira" or whatever is, it should be those BioWare guys.

I realize that saying that kinda disparages all of us... makes it seem like what we do just isn't as significant and isn't as meaningful simply because our characters aren't the "real" ones. And I sometimes wonder if that isn't just actually the case. I know that's a rather harsh way of looking at it, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone by saying that, but I sometimes get to thinking that way. (Shrug)

Hence my general lack of a strong opinion on the subject.

#26 Laufey

Posted 30 December 2004 - 09:17 AM

However, in writing fanfic, our Bhaalspawn are very different people. Would it make sense that all the NPC:s have identical endings despite traveling with these radically different people? I hardly think so. Not to mention that I think it would be extremely boring if we all followed the game slavishly and never deviated at all from the plot we all know by heart.


Sure. Like I said, part of me certainly acknowledges that. At least you guys kept yours in the Realms. VH, Serena, Blue and I didn't, after all. :roll:


So, yes... part of me says "Go nuts" but that doesn't stop me from wondering, on occasion, if it's... "ok" to go nuts. (Shrug)


Fair enough, we all have the right to our opinions after all. It's just that I'm completely baffled why anybody would even consider if it was 'ok' - it's just an alien way of thinking to me, so it puzzles me.

The thing is, there *is* no 'real' version, because we all perceive the characters differently. I'm not objective, no. You're not objective either. No mere mortal is capable of being perfectly objective when it comes to forming an impression about another person, be that person real or fictional.


Agreed... but I think the fact that these are not real people we're talking about, but fictional characters that were actually -created- by somebody, your argument doesn't apply so much. That's what I was trying to say with the whole Lucas thing. He created those characters, he set forth who they are, what they are, and all of that when he created them, so if anyone can be an authority, if anyone gets to say who the "real Luke Skywalker" is, it should be him. Likewise, if anyone gets to say who the "real Jaheira" or whatever is, it should be those BioWare guys.


If we were writing something like an official movie adaptation, we would of course be bound by what Bioware says is the 'real Jaheira' or whatever, whether we agreed or not. Since that's not the case, I choose not to bother.

See, for me it's like this. A writer creates a character. He means for that character to come across in a certain way. Let's say he means for the character to be incredibly wise, and fair, and charming.

Now, I read this book. *I* don't find this character wise, fair, or charming at all. Instead I find him annoying and moronic. Am I 'wrong' to feel this way? No, of course not. Either the writer is a bad writer, and hasn't managed to portray the character in a convincing way. Or else, my feelings are the result of some personal quirk of mine. I'm not wrong either, we don't *have* to see a character the way the writer intended. Especially not in fanfiction, which is all *about* writing your own take of the characters.

I realize that saying that kinda disparages all of us... makes it seem like what we do just isn't as significant and isn't as meaningful simply because our characters aren't the "real" ones. And I sometimes wonder if that isn't just actually the case. I know that's a rather harsh way of looking at it, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone by saying that, but I sometimes get to thinking that way. (Shrug)


Hence my general lack of a strong opinion on the subject.


Heh, harsh or not, I can't say it bothers me. :D I know some people may feel that way, but since it is, as I said, a completely foreign and inexplicable way of thinking to me, it doesn't bother me one bit. I guess I just feel a little sorry for those of you who do think that way, because it seems to me that it robs you of a bit of fun, for no good reason.

In the meantime, I will take pretty much any fanfic posted here over the supposedly 'official' Abduh novel, any time. ;)
Rogues do it from behind.

#27 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 30 December 2004 - 11:33 AM

Well, I rather believe that she blames herself for so many deaths throughout the game – Khalid, the Harpers that the group have to slay – I mean, don’t you think that having her make a decision that leads to another death would be quite a bit over the top?


Ok... so the party gets into a scrap. Two members are severely wounded. Jaheira moves to treat one, even though Aerie/Viconia is convinced the other needs help first. But Jaheira is so convinced she's right that she follows her instinct and helps that first party member... and because she does so, the second one doesn't make it.


What are we supposed to make of a situation like that? The way I see it, she had another opinion that contradicted hers... an opinion that was just as well-informed and well-educated as hers, and yet she was so convinced she was right, that she ignored that opinion.


I can see that happening, and not to her but to all the healers in the game – yes, Viconia’s Int-16, Wis-18 would not preclude her from making the same mistake. It’s a professional oversight that many extremely high-qualified doctors can and do make from time to time nowadays as well… and it’s not a reflection of someone’s intelligence or wisdom, so I would not think of Jaheira as less wise if she would make one such mistake.

I know from personal experience how many other factors contribute to this – for example, the situation you describe is an extremely tense, high-stress situation (I think that for example Aerie would handle such situations much worse than Jaheira, so would be more likely to make a mistake you describe) which contributes to the possibility to make an oversight.

I also know that I occasionally make an oversight in my own line of work for the most trivial reasons or just because I am so damned tired and can not concentrate. Sure, you may think that happens because I’ve always been a dunce, but I don’t agree with that. :D :D

Well, I do take those epilogues in consideration, but you seriously can’t be suggesting that we hold onto those epilogues vigorously in our writing, right?


Honestly, I don't know... see, that's kinda my point. I'm not sure quite what to think. Obviously, I mess with the characters, too... even more so than you do in a lot of ways. Look at the transition to a science-fiction setting and what-not. So yes, I've made lots of modifications, and I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to say that we're not "allowed" to tweak things like that.


But part of me also thinks that since they're not originally our characters, we don't have... the right... I, guess, for lack of a better term, to say "Well, I don't like that idea, so I'm just going to ignore it."


But there are some things that are rather contradictory in the game’s portrayal of the character, and you have to figure a way to reconcile that. If you can’t do that, well, ignoring things that you can’t reconcile makes sense to me. I don’t think that for example giving Jaheira a different epilogue than the one in the game somehow breaks her character, now does it? :D

I mean, if we just pick and choose aspects of characters that we like, and ignore aspects we don't like, and work with that, then we're not really working with the actual characters, we're working with versions that aren't necessarily "true" to the "real" ones.


Yes, but I don’t even know what the “real” character is like! I can only perceive Jaheira the way I do from the game dialogues and I write her accordingly – and my, Laufey’s or yours perception of her might be far off from the way her creator saw her. How can you be sure that you know what the “real” Jaheira is like?

The answer is that you can't know that - and so, this is something that I consider rather silly to even bother thinking or stressing about. :P

My Jaheira seems “real” enough to me. Am I wrong to think so? And who can decide if she’s “real” or not? I can always claim that my interpretation of her is how I see her logically extrapolating and growing from the game’s dialogue. And really, no one can prove me wrong that it’s not the case. :D

Wait… you have a female ‘Bhaalspawn’… aaaaaaghh! Guess I should stop reading Omegas now…


Thanks for the vote of confidence. :D


I will say this, though... she ain't ending up with Charname. That's never gonna happen. :roll:


Awww… poor Lynn, I don’t know how she’s going to survive the loss… ;) Doomed to the life of a spinster, waaaaah… :D

Hey, and you do know that there’s lots of people out there who consider the BG novels “canonical” and the character portrayal in them being the correct one.


Urk.


See, this is kinda what I meant with that earlier rant, dude. :D


The BG novels are an "official" source... do they suck? Yeah, pretty much. :D But they're still "official..."


Even though the guy who wrote them was only marginally aware of the game’s plot and the character concepts? Riiiiiight… :D

I don't know... like I said, I'm not quite sure where I stand on this, either, but I've tried to illustrate both sides of that argument. Hope I was marginally successful. :D


Sorry, but I think I’m with Laufey on this one… I’m afraid that I simply can’t comprehend the point of view that you are trying to defend. I think I see this as a way of trying to limit ourselves in writing, and it’s something that I think defeats the very purpose of writing, and so I will always oppose such view. :P

#28 Guest_VigaHrolf_*

Posted 30 December 2004 - 08:26 PM

Roly-Poly Note-heads:


Yum!

1. No shooting, no explosions, just talk... ack! How boring! :D


What about wild, lacivious behavior? :roll:

2. Unfortunately, despite the dialogue, no resolution of "major" plot arcs just yet. Sorry, gang. I'm being silly and stretching this crap out. :P


Good! More Omegas!

4. Fair warning: Words of wisdom... out of Minsc... yeah, I know, I couldn't believe it, either, but the big guy decided to smarten up on me, even if it was only temporary...


Minsc: "Minsc and Boo are very intelligent and wise! We always put the Boot of Good to the Backside of Evil!"

:D Plus, you know my opinion on the big man. While he may not be a Nobel Prize winner, he's got the gentle wisdom so often lost in this world.

5. I'm mostly happy with how the Falynn/Jaheira section at the end turned out, but it could probably use a little more polish. Wasn't sure what more I could really do with it, though.


I've got some suggestions. ;) :D

“And that’s the whole, sordid tale…”


Except the part with the fusion powered happy chair.

Nalia let out a low whistle as she and Imoen emerged from the back of the APC. “Well, I guess I can see why she’s all upset about it.”


Yeah, the happy chair will never be the same. :P

“You might be right about that. Lynn’s never been too good at passing the buck, especially where I’m concerned… I just… I just wish she’d cut herself a break. I wish she’d realize that she can’t afford to blame herself for everything. There’s plenty of blame in the world as it is without finding more to heap on yourself, you know?”


Bran: "Its damn hard to avoid doing that when you're the CO. Damn hard."

“It’s a common problem for people like her…”

“ ‘People like her?’ What do you mean?”


Imoen V.: "Down, Harly."

Nalia looked a little shamefaced. “Sorry… I didn’t mean for it to come out like that. It’s just… she’s got a lot of responsibilities… some piled on her by other people, some she imposed upon herself… and when you do that, it becomes really hard to let things slide. You believe that so much is relying on you, so much depends on your every decision, and the pressure just mounts. It’s the kind of thing that happens to anyone who’s… important… I guess. My Dad’s not just a politician, he’s an honest one. Trust me; I’ve seen this kinda thing before.”


Bran: "An honest politician? The poor man must have ulcers the size of small moons."

“Ok, ok, I see what you’re saying, but… I still don’t know what to do about it… I mean, identifying all the root causes of Falynn’s angst is well and good, but I still wanna know how to fix it… and I don’t think I’ll be able to settle for the ‘she has to work this out on her own’ answer.”


Nalia: "You can't fix a problem to you know what's the problem. Then you can actually fix it instead of just patching the systems up."

That statement was met with a wry smirk. “No, I didn’t think you would.” The navy officer sighed and shrugged. “But I don’t know how to make her realize something she’s had plenty of time to figure out, but still hasn’t, yet. How do you make someone see something that’s been right under their nose the entire time? You can’t just swipe a squeegee across a psychological blind spot, and fix it that way. Anyway, I’m not sure if you should even try and force the issue, either.”


Squeegees are cool.

“Why not?”


Uh oh

“Couldn’t make things any worse.”


Murphy: "Things can ALWAYS be worse."

Nalia winced. “You know, usually, when people say stuff like that-”


The universe goes BOOM

“Yeah… yeah, I know… I just… hate feeling so helpless.”


Imoen V.: "Hey, Harly... I understand that. That just sucks."

“You’re not going to listen to my advice, are you?”


Jaheira: "Of course not."

“Hiya, Minsc. Where’s Boo?”

The bald-headed soldier looked up from zeroing the sights on his weapon and smiled warmly at Imoen’s approach. “Boo was attempting to explain quantum mechanics to me, but then she made a loud squeaking noise and shut down.”


*blink* Explaining quantum physics to Minsc?

Never try to teach Minsc quantum physics. It only wastes your time and annoys Minsc. :P :D

“What is wrong?”


Perceptive.. ain't he. :D

“I appreciate the sentiment, but I don’t know if you can help me, Minsc.”

“Minsc is not the sharpest sword in the armory, it is true, but maybe little Imoen should try talking about her feelings, anyway?”


I like that line. :D Sharpest sword. :D

She chuckled wryly. Well, I told Nalia I’d solicit a second opinion. Just didn’t think about getting it from Minsc. “Guess it couldn’t hurt…” she said out loud, “Minsc… do… do you remember how you felt when Dynaheir died?”


So Dynaheir bit it in this universe too, huh?

He nodded solemnly. “It was a very difficult time. Very difficult.”
[
“I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have just brought it up like that-”

He shook his head. “No, it is all right. It -was- a difficult time. Dynaheir was a friend, and Minsc was her protector. There was much shame when she died, but I swore to avenge her falling, and avenge I did. Many orcish butts were kicked in the days that followed.” He straightened, and his chin rose proudly.


Heaps and heaps. :D

“See, that’s just it, Minsc. You fought, you kicked some ass, and while it didn’t bring Dynaheir back, while it didn’t make all the pain go away, it helped, some, right?”


KATN. It doesn't make you feel better, but it does certain work out some of the stress. :D

“Avenging those who have fallen against Evil is always a good feeling. It helped Minsc deal with the loss, though Boo was a great comfort as well, of course.”


Minsc: "I like Avenging! So does Larry!"

Lilarcor 900: "Oh yeah! Lets go Avenge somebody RIGHT NOW!"

“Heh. Of course. It just… it just feels as if Falynn is trying to ‘avenge’ me, even though I’m still alive. And no matter how many butts she kicks, it never seems to be enough. She never seems to stop hurting.”


That does have to be annoying.. but I'd say she's trying to make up for her 'failures' than avenge.

“There are many tales, in Rashemen, of warriors who would put their boots into the faces of any who would threaten their land. They would fight and fight and fight. Their fury knew no limits; skalds everywhere would sing songs of their battles, and when they died, they would be welcomed by all the other fighters who died before them. For many a year, Minsc wished to be one of them.”

“What happened?”

“Dynaheir died. And Minsc raged, just like the berserkers of old. Where e’er Minsc trod, Evil fell. And for some time, it was good. But Minsc grew tired of raging, and so he stopped. But there is Evil everywhere, enough to keep even Minsc and Boo busy throwing fists in faces.”

“I’m not sure I see what you’re getting at…”

“We can never stop fighting, but we can stop raging. Do you see, little Imoen?”


*claps*

Excellent. :D Very excellent sir. :D :D

Imoen blinked. “Surprisingly, I think I do… think you could give that little speech you just gave me to Falynn, too?”

“Falynn is wise… almost as wise as Boo sometimes; she will figure it out on her own, even without our help.”

She sighed. “Yeah. People keep telling me that.”


Imoen V.: *looks around to make sure no one is looking then pushes a tall cranberry vodka Harly's way*

"They say food digests better if you chew it first."


Bran: "Not ration bars."

Falynn swallowed her bite of nutritious, but certainly not delicious, ration bar. “Don’t talk, Jaheira, I’ve seen you eat. Does the term ‘Doppler Effect’ ring a bell? So… how’s the casualty situation?”


*snigger*

“And four Dominion heavy tanks destroyed or disabled, plus a bunch of enemy infantry dead. Pretty good trade.”


Bran: "I believe we call that operational success. Or, a nice prelude. :D"

“An excellent one.”

“ ‘Excellent,’ huh? I’ll be sure to mention you said that in my report.”


Bran: "One of the things I like about being an independent operator is no after action reports ever again."

The half-eleven medic nodded. “So… were you planning on coming to me with this situation between you and Imoen or were you just going to insult my intelligence and pretend there was nothing going on?”


Ahhh.. the famous line that sparked a thousand replies.. (see below)

Falynn didn’t respond to that at first; she stalled, and twiddled her thumbs together. “Mind like a steel trap, Jaheira… and I’m tempted to gnaw my own foot off to escape.”


Another great line. Wasn't that in a TV show, or is that an Alpha original?

“I would recommend against it. Cloned replacements are not cheap.”


Bran: "You're telling me."

“Look… I’d… rather not talk about it…”

“I didn’t ask you whether you wanted to talk about it.”


*snigger*

That comment gave Falynn pause. She frowned in mild annoyance. “Oh, gee… I’m sorry, I guess I was under the mistaken impression that -I- gave the orders, not the other way around.”


Bran: "You were. Plus she's the medic. She can pull that whole medical status thing on yer butt."

Jaheira shook her head and rolled her eyes. “This has nothing to do with rank, and I think you know that. I was asking you as one friend to another.”

“Is that what we are? Friends?”


oooch...

“Do you think otherwise?”

Falynn pursed her lips together. She mulled it over for a moment. “No. No, I guess not.”


I'd hate to be the other thing....

“So, I still don’t want to talk about it. I need…” she shrugged, helplessly. “I think I need to get this stuff kinda straight in my own head before I can tell anyone else about it. Know what I mean?”


Sometimes one has to dump it all out and then look for the organization system.

“I do, but let me take this opportunity to remind you that your emotional well-being is not all that is at stake here, and anything that affects your thinking, whether you care to admit it or not, affects the rest of us, as well.”

“I’m painfully aware of that. Trust me – the idea that my deteriorating mental health could put all of you at risk doesn’t exactly sit well with me. I’m… working on it.”


In fact, its making it worse.....

Bran: (to Vixen) "Sometimes an XO has got to drag their CO out somewhere, fill em full of alcohol, and then just listen while the barriers come tumbling down."

“Why do you always interpret everything I say as criticism?” Jaheira asked, sadly. “Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not exist simply to point out each and every one of your shortcomings, nor do I derive any pleasure from such. Believe me when I say that my concern is quite real, and, despite what I said earlier, not merely an effort to ‘save my own skin’ as it were.” She paused. “I wish you would just talk to me, but I suppose I cannot force you.”


:D Poor Vix.

“No. You can’t. Look… I promise… as soon as I get even some of this worked out, I’ll talk your ear off. Ok?”

“I’ll hold you to that promise.”

“I’m sure you will.”


Poor Falynn is gonna need some help I think.

Great piece Alpha.. great dialogue and pacing adn you resisted the urge to resolve things. :D :D Good work.

Now.. as to the major issues.

Jaheira:
I'm a big fan, as many have no doubt noticed. I've always held an opinion that her mental stats (as important as those are :P) are probably higher than they are recorded. But more in the rank of raw brain power. Maybe in the 12-13 Int 15 Wis area.

In studying her character, I see a bright if not truly creative tactician, a caring and understanding if not very forgiving soul. A woman who has a unfortunate weakness in forming very strong opinions and having trouble changing them. She BELIEVES in things. She has convictions of steel. Which is not always a good thing. I think at times, she shows inflexibility in her assumptions and impressions.

And I can see how they could lead to disasterous results. She decides a person is untrustworthy after much evidence, but the one time she needs to trust them to survive, she can't manage it and bad things happen.

I think seeing Jaheira truly make a mistake and pay for it would make for interesting reading. In fact, I'd like to see characters reap the full results of thier decisions more often. I think we are all guilty of sparing the rod sometimes. And you have to. Its hard to read about people who screw up and do it as badly as a normal human. It's not very heroic.

But the challenge.. I like it. I may have to work on it.....

Character Interpretation:
On this... well I'm conflicted. The thing is we can't run free and amok with the characters. They aren't ours. Now I think there is a lot of room to play and to make them grow and change. But there are somethings I just couldn't see.

To take a character I know no one cares about.. Cernd.

Cernd as a someone who has completely disappeared into nature, perhaps to the point of never even taking human form again.. I could see that. But what about a Cernd that abandons nature, his calling and decides to rape and murder are more his thing? I think that these are liberties we can't take. We could do that with our own characters, but we must remain 'faithful' to the original editions or they are nothing more than our characters with someone else's name and clothes and face draped on them. And that I think is wrong.

Now, I like to take liberties with my characters make up, which is part of why I chose SciFi as my prime outlet.

*shrug*

I guess if we're picking sides, I'm more along the 'Alpha' camp. But not really in it. I guess I believe we have an obligation as fanfic writers to strive to remain as faithful to the original character as we can possibly be.

My two cents. Now I'm heading for the beach. Happy New Years folks.

VH

#29 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:25 AM

What about wild, lacivious behavior?


Not until after the zombies show up. :oops:

I've got some suggestions.


I'm sure you do. I'm not gonna entertain them, though. :cry:

Except the part with the fusion powered happy chair.


Harlequin: "Well... yeah... but I kinda -had- to leave that part out. Everyone always starts snickering when I mention that fusion-powered massage chair."

Imoen V.: "Down, Harly."


;) I shoulda made that clearer. It was more of a confused "What do you mean?" than an annoyed one.

Bran: "An honest politician? The poor man must have ulcers the size of small moons."


Cipher: "My father's got a full-time gastroenterologist on staff. During Dad's re-election campaign last year, Dr. Blevins earned enough to put his kid through college."

Squeegees are cool.


I didn't have a snow brush earlier this week, so when it snowed, I had nothing to wipe the snow off the car. I would have settled for a squeegee, but I didn't have one of those around, either. :shock:

Imoen V.: "Hey, Harly... I understand that. That just sucks."


Harlequin: (Looks towards VH, looks towards Alpha) "She's acting kinda sympathetic. What's the catch?"

*blink* Explaining quantum physics to Minsc?

Never try to teach Minsc quantum physics. It only wastes your time and annoys Minsc.


I don't think Minsc is against learning new things. He just... can't... most of the time. :shock:

Sharpest sword.


Just sounded like an appropriate Minsc-line to me...

So Dynaheir bit it in this universe too, huh?


'fraid so... though I haven't determined the specifics of it yet. I figure she was probably Intel or something...

*claps*

Excellent.


:D I'm very proud of the big guy. He never ceases to amaze me.

Imoen V.: *looks around to make sure no one is looking then pushes a tall cranberry vodka Harly's way*


Alpha: (Blinks) "I coulda sworn I saw something... huh..."

Bran: "Not ration bars."


Like pulling off a Band-Aid. Just get it done as quickly as possible.

Another great line. Wasn't that in a TV show, or is that an Alpha original?


As far as I know, it's mine. :shock: I sometimes come up with my own lines... sometimes. :cry:

Bran: "You're telling me."


Harlequin: "Cybernetic replacements ain't cheap, either."

Bran: "You were. Plus she's the medic. She can pull that whole medical status thing on yer butt."


Raven: "For physical ailments, sure... but my mental health really isn't her jurisdiction."

I'd hate to be the other thing...


No one really wants her as an enemy... unless you got a latent death wish.

Raven: "You're my friend?"

Vixen: "In the sense that we see each other every day and I don't find your presence repulsive, yes..."

Bran: (to Vixen) "Sometimes an XO has got to drag their CO out somewhere, fill em full of alcohol, and then just listen while the barriers come tumbling down."


Vixen: "The problem with that plan is that Imoen will be completely inebriated and useless well before Falynn has had enough to become even slightly tipsy."

Poor Vix.


Yeah, she's feeling pretty lousy. Despite the fact that they don't see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, Jaheira really does care about Falynn... and it hurts her that Lynn doesn't seem to believe that... especially at times like this.

Great piece Alpha.. great dialogue and pacing adn you resisted the urge to resolve things.


Well, I don't want to stretch things out too long, but you don't want to fix all the problems right away, either... it's not an easy thing to get the timing down right. (Shrug) But even if some stuff does get fixed, I've still got some other mean stuff I could do... like, y'know, making Im an alcoholic and such... :)

She has convictions of steel. Which is not always a good thing. I think at times, she shows inflexibility in her assumptions and impressions.


Right right. And you'd think that those convictions would get her in trouble if she were convinced that she was right when she was clearly wrong. Only... I've never seen that happen... it probably should have at some point, but I've never seen it.

I think we are all guilty of sparing the rod sometimes. And you have to. Its hard to read about people who screw up and do it as badly as a normal human. It's not very heroic.


Hence why some people don't like "heroic" characters, at all... I do, but I'm silly. :twisted:

Now, I like to take liberties with my characters make up, which is part of why I chose SciFi as my prime outlet.


Same here... the catch is that the actual setting (Sci-fi, fantasy, contemporary) is kinda a minor point, I think. It's keeping the characters "true" that's more important, and so despite the sci-fi motif, if the characters still seem a lot like themselves, then it still works. So, yeah, we're on the same page with that one.

I guess I believe we have an obligation as fanfic writers to strive to remain as faithful to the original character as we can possibly be.


That's kind of what I was trying to say, yeah... only much cleaner and more succinct. Thanks. :shock:

My two cents. Now I'm heading for the beach. Happy New Years folks.


Beach? Damn you. It's cold up here. :shock:

#30 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:42 AM

Fair enough, we all have the right to our opinions after all. It's just that I'm completely baffled why anybody would even consider if it was 'ok' - it's just an alien way of thinking to me, so it puzzles me.


Well, the way I look at it, it's like... ok, you're 8-years old. This kid you know from school invites you over so you can play. You show up, and he's got these awesome, new Extreme-Ultra-Mega-Samurai-Cyborg action figures... and without asking, you pick 'em up and start throwing 'em around the room, 'cause, you know, the Extreme-Ultra-Mega-Samurai-Cyborgs can fly when you see 'em in the cartoon.

Only the toys -can't- fly... and they break. So, basically, you stole some kid's toys, you smashed 'em, and now what? Do you feel guilty? I would. :cry:

I mean, horrible analogy aside, it's almost like that... taking someone's property or creation or whatever, and just stomping on it. This probably -will- sound unfathomable to you, but it's almost... disrespectful... or at least it seems so to me.

If we were writing something like an official movie adaptation, we would of course be bound by what Bioware says is the 'real Jaheira' or whatever, whether we agreed or not. Since that's not the case, I choose not to bother.


Ok, I see that point, but I guess I'm just the type to put more restrictions on myself. Yes, what we're doing isn't "official", and so we don't actually have someone sitting behind us, looking over our shoulders and saying "Do it this way." I do choose to impose rules like that upon myself... but maybe that's just because I'm one of those "orderly" types. :cry: I don't know... even though what we do isn't official in the least, I still think we're obligated to keep things in check to some extent.

And does that place limits on the fun factor? Sure does. In that sense, I envy you the ability to just say "The hell with it" and do whatever you want. It's a lot more liberating, I bet. ;)

Sure, you may think that happens because I’ve always been a dunce, but I don’t agree with that.


Dude, I'm in no position to call anyone dumb. That would be one of those "Kettle, this is Pot: You're black." situations. :D

The answer is that you can't know that - and so, this is something that I consider rather silly to even bother thinking or stressing about.


Again, I envy that attitude sometimes. I'm just not the type of person that does that kinda thing. Never been one who could "accept the things I cannot change..." I like things neat, tidy, and don't like it when something isn't perfectly clear to me. So if I don't know exactly what a character "should" be like, it sometimes bothers me.

But that's just my own, personal hang-up, I guess.

Doomed to the life of a spinster, waaaaah…


(Shakes head) Ye of little faith!

:twisted:

Just because she's not hooked up yet, and just because she has no prospects as yet, you assume she's going to be alone for the rest of her life? C'mon... if I do say so myself, the girl's charming, intelligent, has a great sense of humor, and is -very- good at what she does. She's a hell of a catch! :oops:

I think I see this as a way of trying to limit ourselves in writing, and it’s something that I think defeats the very purpose of writing, and so I will always oppose such view.


It is limiting, but I guess I don't think writing fanfic gives you a carte blanche to do -whatever- you like. Yes, you've got some freedom, and there's nothing wrong with exercising that freedom, but it's a privilege that, I think, can be misused, and so I try to avoid that... but you're right. It just seems that our views on this subject are just plain different.

That's all right. Doesn't make you a bad person. :)

#31 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 08:25 AM


Ok... so the party gets into a scrap. Two members are severely wounded. Jaheira moves to treat one, even though Aerie/Viconia is convinced the other needs help first. But Jaheira is so convinced she's right that she follows her instinct and helps that first party member... and because she does so, the second one doesn't make it.

What are we supposed to make of a situation like that? The way I see it, she had another opinion that contradicted hers... an opinion that was just as well-informed and well-educated as hers, and yet she was so convinced she was right, that she ignored that opinion.


I can see that happening, and not to her but to all the healers in the game – yes, Viconia’s Int-16, Wis-18 would not preclude her from making the same mistake. It’s a professional oversight that many extremely high-qualified doctors can and do make from time to time nowadays as well… and it’s not a reflection of someone’s intelligence or wisdom, so I would not think of Jaheira as less wise if she would make one such mistake.


No, she's not, but I would argue because she is less wise and I would argue less intelligent that she would be more likely than Viconia she would be more likely to make such a mistake in the first place.

I know from personal experience how many other factors contribute to this – for example, the situation you describe is an extremely tense, high-stress situation (I think that for example Aerie would handle such situations much worse than Jaheira, so would be more likely to make a mistake you describe) which contributes to the possibility to make an oversight.


As you say, since the situation is tense she has more things to keep track of and so the likelihood of an error goes up, but these things happen more with less skilled physicians. With so much to try and cover at the same time a person with less capacity, in terms of logic and precision and in terms of good-decision making is more likely to make an error.

One error doesn't indicate a lack of capacity, but a lack of capacity does increase the chance of an error.

What Alpha is saying is not that Jaheira is lacking in wisdom or intelligence because she makes a mistake, but that she makes a mistake because of that lack, and while it may not be a pattern it is more likely that she do so on more than one occassion.

#32 Laufey

Posted 31 December 2004 - 08:46 AM

Fair enough, we all have the right to our opinions after all. It's just that I'm completely baffled why anybody would even consider if it was 'ok' - it's just an alien way of thinking to me, so it puzzles me.


Well, the way I look at it, it's like... ok, you're 8-years old. This kid you know from school invites you over so you can play. You show up, and he's got these awesome, new Extreme-Ultra-Mega-Samurai-Cyborg action figures... and without asking, you pick 'em up and start throwing 'em around the room, 'cause, you know, the Extreme-Ultra-Mega-Samurai-Cyborgs can fly when you see 'em in the cartoon.


Only the toys -can't- fly... and they break. So, basically, you stole some kid's toys, you smashed 'em, and now what? Do you feel guilty? I would. :twisted:


I mean, horrible analogy aside, it's almost like that... taking someone's property or creation or whatever, and just stomping on it. This probably -will- sound unfathomable to you, but it's almost... disrespectful... or at least it seems so to me.


Well, the analogy simply doesn't work for me - because it's not as if I *can* 'break' the original story. If I write fanfic, the worst that can happen is that I write *bad* fanfic. The only person to suffer from that will be me. The original story will still be there, intact, to be enjoyed by anybody who so wishes. (Though in the case of the supposed 'official' BG novels, I can't imagine that can be very many people.)

Or maybe I'm just a disrespectful person. :oops:

If we were writing something like an official movie adaptation, we would of course be bound by what Bioware says is the 'real Jaheira' or whatever, whether we agreed or not. Since that's not the case, I choose not to bother.


Ok, I see that point, but I guess I'm just the type to put more restrictions on myself. Yes, what we're doing isn't "official", and so we don't actually have someone sitting behind us, looking over our shoulders and saying "Do it this way." I do choose to impose rules like that upon myself... but maybe that's just because I'm one of those "orderly" types. :shock: I don't know... even though what we do isn't official in the least, I still think we're obligated to keep things in check to some extent.


And I don't see why that is, and completely disagree, but as long as you're only trying to impose that 'rule' on yourself on not on others, I don't let that bother me either. :)

And does that place limits on the fun factor? Sure does. In that sense, I envy you the ability to just say "The hell with it" and do whatever you want. It's a lot more liberating, I bet. :shock:


Well, if I may use aligment terms just this once - maybe it's because you're more of a Lawful person than I am. :cry: That's all right, doesn't mean you're a *bad* person. :cry: ;) :D


The answer is that you can't know that - and so, this is something that I consider rather silly to even bother thinking or stressing about.


Again, I envy that attitude sometimes. I'm just not the type of person that does that kinda thing. Never been one who could "accept the things I cannot change..." I like things neat, tidy, and don't like it when something isn't perfectly clear to me. So if I don't know exactly what a character "should" be like, it sometimes bothers me.


But that's just my own, personal hang-up, I guess.


Hmm...I guess that means you must be bothered by a *lot* of things as you write. There are tons of things we don't know about what the characters 'should' be like. Let me take Edwin for example. I've made up Edwin's entire background in my writing, because the game gives us zero information on it. Absolutely nothing, he never discusses it. And to me that's a blessing, because it means I can write whatever I want. But where a character comes from, what his background is, is a very important part of who the *character* is, because the past influences the present, and often explains why the character reacts a certain way in a certain situation.

Do you need to know Jan's entire family tree in order to create a Jansen tale of your own? I wouldn't think so, I think that could drive anybody insane.

To take another, *really* infected debate issue - did Irenicus rape Imoen? The game designers never said 'yes' or 'no' on the subject, and they never will. You have to decide that for yourself.

As for what the characters 'should' be like when it comes to psychology, that's something you can *never* know for sure, unless you ask their creator exactly how the character would react and behave in every given situation that you create for them.

And that, I think, would be extremely boring, since part of what I enjoy about writing fanfic is figuring those things out for myself. :shock:
Rogues do it from behind.

#33 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 09:06 AM

Ahem… he speaks in ALL CAPS. I think that says it all, really. :cry:


That he's loud has nothing to do with his intellect. My point was that Minsc too uses complex vocabulary so it's not fair to say that complex vocabulary is a way to judge intellect unless you apply it equally.


Sorry, I took a look at his banters and there’s no complex vocab there. Whatever there is, is probably whispered to him by Boo and he uses it without understanding its meaning, at least that’s how it looks to me.


I've never considered Boo more than of animal intelligence but rather that Minsc ascribes to him the intellect and wisdom that he doesn't have. Whatever Boo says are really things that Minsc himself has thought of in a moment of unsual insight that harkens back to before he injured his brain. Boo is just how he contextualizes these things. He can't understand how he can understand so he decides Boo has told him what's going on.

Personally I do see some more complex vocabulary and certainly some grasp of abstract thinking in him. He's aware of the difference between good and evil, and though it isn't quite as complex as that of a more intelligent character, he understands this difference in more than simple terms and he is able to puzzle out without guidance which is which.



You *do* know who wrote Aerie’s content for the game, yes? :oops:



I'm not going to hero worship someone if there's a chance they did a shoddy job making all aspects of a characters representation make sense. Someone must have screwed up with Aerie otherwise she wouldn't be so inconsistant. Her character sheet says LG, I see her, especially when in conflict with Jaheira, as LN with a delusion that she is good, like un-reformed Anomen. Her sheet says Int/Wis 16, she doesn't show that sort of mental capacity in game dialogue. So either someone screwed up taking down statistics or someone screwed up writing down dialogue. In my stories I try to mediate these inconsistancies, but my point is they shouldn't be there in the first place.


Okay, fair enough, I am fairly certain that Dave G. doesn’t really care if you are critical of his writing or not. :) Besides, to me there is no real inconsistency about Aerie in her game dialogues, it’s more in reconciling her dialogues with the character sheet and that may have well been designed by someone else and without any real attempt to match it to her dialogues. That’s one possibility.


Well, what I think on the Aerie matter really depends on what mood I'm in.

I've suffered from clinical depression since I was about eleven so I know in intimate detail at least one aspect of what Aerie is feeling. Some days you're sweetness and light because you want to be happy, but other time you are so unhappy and mad at the world that you are downright cruel. You want to be strong, but you have no motivation to do anything, you look for any excuse not to get out of bed, you invent illness to avoid dealing with the outside world. All of these things I think are indicated in Aerie's behavior. Her whininess is simply an outgrowth of her inability to cope with what she's endured, her cruelty to Jaheira about Khalid in their jealousy dialogues is her in what if she were more mentally stable would be a completely uncharacteristic rage. If think it's more fear of losing one of the few people that can ease her horrible guilt that makes her cruel than an actual behavioral pattern of cruelty.

I'm able to limit the effects of depression with a prescription, but Aerie doesn't have that ability and I would argue that the causes for her depression go beyond the mere chemical imbalance of her brain and not only that but she is continually having to deal with more and more stressful situations. This is the sort of stuff that I just think she isn't capable of coping with correctly simply because her emotional maturity has been so stunted. Jaheira just has a different personality, or perhaps a different way of coping with her depression.

Anyway, that's how I think about it when I'm in a more sympathetic mood. When that's the case I don't think there's any discrepancy in Aerie's portrayal at all, just that because not everyone who plays the game has as deep an understand of what it's like to be depressed (and I'm not talking sad for a few says, I'm talking months and months of untreated clinical depression.) Normally I don't think I would attack Dave G.'s writing, I just get unusually grumpy when people insist that we have to maintain a certain sort of awe toawrds the game designers/writers just because they're the game designers/writers. Heck, I was critical James Joyce and W.B. Yeats in essays for my 20th century Irish literature class because I percieved something wrong with what they were saying (don't get riled fans of Yeats and Joyce, I wasn't saying they suck and as I side note I actually like their writing.) If two of Irish literature's best known and most respected authors can't escape me when I feel critical a game designer certainly isn't.



Well, umm, I don’t know, I think that in most stories she is already being portrayed that way. Certainly, if she would be portrayed as an impeccable fighter and a fountain of never-erring wisdom who never does anything wrong, aka, Mary Sue – then I would hate her guts. Me, I especially love the portrayals where she is more flawed, it makes her even more human – and certainly my version of her is very much flawed.



I've not read your story very much, I'm afraid. I don't have quite enough time to catch up at the moment, but what I'm saying is that the number of stories where the PC immediately turns to Jaheira for advice (or gets it regardless) and is significantly positively influenced by what she says is high. I'm no exception, particularly early on. Likewise there are a huge number of stories where Jaheira wins the majority of the verbal sparring match she gets in. Mary Sue? No, that's Charname's job (I'm also a but guilty here, but I work on it), but she's still most often portrayed as the victor and to even things out I'd like to see more stories where her actions don't tend to have a positive ring to them.


Well… of course, you can write your stories however you wish to, but it’s just that seeing Jaheira giving an obviously bad advice or not being able to grasp a fairly obvious thing will be something that always strikes me painfully uncharacteristic for her.


Fairly obvious depends on perspective. I wouldn't do much more than hinting to the reader before an outcome has been revealed that Jaheira's perspective on a given situation is incorrect, and even then it wouldn't happen too terribly often, but in hindsight it would seem apparent that she was wrong. So if you're looking at the situation in the present it would seem questionable whether she's right or wrong, or it might even seem that she is entirely right, but after things have been resolved it would be more obvious that she was indeed incorrect.



And here in Alpha’s tale, she wasn’t exactly able to help Lynn with her problem, was she? So she *doesn't* always say the right thing, after all.



First off, Alpha, I like your Jaheira, so don't take any of this to heart if you read it.



No, Jaheira doesn't help, but she's still -right-, and I can imagine that as things go along it will turn out that what she said will have a positive influence. That's great of Falynn and co. but what I'd really, really like to see is Jaheira be wrong or give bad advice, something that has a negative effect on the other characters.


The thing is, you have to be pretty dumb and very low on empathy to give that very wrong kind of advice in this situation. It’s just one of the perfect situations where you obviously expect Jaheira being able to relate and give a helpful advice – hell, you don’t come seeking her advice when you’re being beaten in scrabble or chess or whatever – she’s not so good at helping there. But Falynn’s problem *is* something that Jaheira can help with, so having her goof up here would leave me with a ‘wait, this doesn’t make sense’ kind of a reaction.


Exactly. What Alpha shows is a situation within Jaheira's capacity to understand, which is why I think it's good.



Yes, I’m afraid I don’t really see your point. She can be both a competent fighter and a wise person and insightful advisor, but she can also be flawed and make mistakes at the same time. You don’t really need to consciously dumb her down in order to make her more interesting, I think.



Not all the time, no. That would be just as utterly dull. My point, just to make it explicit, is that I've yet to see one of her mistakes have as much of an impact as one of her successes. Her mistakes are usually small, her flaws nothing terribly bad and in the end the majority of her portrayals are overwhelmingly positive. She is, in fact, one of the few characters that I see consistently depicted so positively. I may just not be reading the right stories, but that's my experience.


Well, the game does treat her very roughly throughout the whole BG2, so to me it’s no real wonder that some people feel sympathetic towards her and are more inclined to portray her positively. I wish you luck with your story and your alternative portrayal of her, though. :cry:


I'm not saying portay her negatively, or that I'm not sympathetic to her. Nor am I saying even that I'm going to go and write an antagonistic or unsympathetic Jaheira. I think that it's more than possible to be sympathetic to a character that's just plain wrong now and again.

-Blue

#34 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 10:38 AM


I know from personal experience how many other factors contribute to this – for example, the situation you describe is an extremely tense, high-stress situation (I think that for example Aerie would handle such situations much worse than Jaheira, so would be more likely to make a mistake you describe) which contributes to the possibility to make an oversight.


As you say, since the situation is tense she has more things to keep track of and so the likelihood of an error goes up, but these things happen more with less skilled physicians. With so much to try and cover at the same time a person with less capacity, in terms of logic and precision and in terms of good-decision making is more likely to make an error.


I am sorry, but I simply don’t think there is any connection between whatever stats are there on her character sheet and her skill as a physician. Especially in a case of being a field doctor, which is really all about the experience and being able to operate in high-stress situations, in which Jaheira and her nerves of steel is extremely durable. It’s tough to compare her against the other healers in terms of skill, but I think because of her experience and her personality traits, she is highly competent and one I would probably trust above the others. Certainly, Viconia may be as or even more competent than Jaheira because she has pretty much the same qualities that make Jaheira an excellent healer, but… Viconia is just a type of person who could be, you know, a touch too late in healing a grievously wounded person… especially if she really dislikes that person. :oops: I see Jaheira as more professional in that, as in not letting her personal opinion influence on who gets healed first – something I wouldn’t quite trust Vic with.

That’s just my opinion, certainly I am not going to bring up some ‘evidence’ to back that up – where there probably is none, actually. It’s just how I see the characters.

Also, I think that the ‘crime’ of never making a bad decision that you ‘accuse’ Jaheira of, very much applies to many other characters – certainly, Keldorn is one very good example, as he is indeed mostly portrayed as the proverbial fountain of wisdom. Also, Viconia. I can’t remember any story where Viconia would have made a bad mistake or just had been plainly verbally bested. To me, Viconia and Keldorn stand out in particular when it comes to never erring.

I've never considered Boo more than of animal intelligence but rather that Minsc ascribes to him the intellect and wisdom that he doesn't have. Whatever Boo says are really things that Minsc himself has thought of in a moment of unsual insight that harkens back to before he injured his brain. Boo is just how he contextualizes these things. He can't understand how he can understand so he decides Boo has told him what's going on.


I think that jury is still out on just what Boo is. Your opinion is one of many, and just as valid as the rest of them.

Anyway, that's how I think about it when I'm in a more sympathetic mood. When that's the case I don't think there's any discrepancy in Aerie's portrayal at all, just that because not everyone who plays the game has as deep an understand of what it's like to be depressed (and I'm not talking sad for a few says, I'm talking months and months of untreated clinical depression.)


Maybe so, most people indeed have a poor understanding of mental illnesses – but you should not let yourself think that everyone who sees Aerie differently, maybe as more of a passive-aggressive manipulative type, do not have experience with mental illnesses, hence their different, "incorrect" interpretation. It’s just that we may have our own, different experiences even there, and it makes us see certain things differently.

Normally I don't think I would attack Dave G.'s writing, I just get unusually grumpy when people insist that we have to maintain a certain sort of awe toawrds the game designers/writers just because they're the game designers/writers.


Yes, but really, do you think I would be extremely respectful towards Dave’s writing, considering that he has created my most strongly hated fictional character? Especially if I thought that he really meant her to be a serious character and not a clichéd parody about stereotypical whiny, clingy and needy blonde… Right now, I am undecided about what he truly meant with Aerie... no one knows, except Dave himself.

Bleargh… must make my avoid speaking about Aerie save next time… :)

#35 Laufey

Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:47 PM

Anyway, that's how I think about it when I'm in a more sympathetic mood. When that's the case I don't think there's any discrepancy in Aerie's portrayal at all, just that because not everyone who plays the game has as deep an understand of what it's like to be depressed (and I'm not talking sad for a few says, I'm talking months and months of untreated clinical depression.)


Maybe so, most people indeed have a poor understanding of mental illnesses – but you should not let yourself think that everyone who sees Aerie differently, maybe as more of a passive-aggressive manipulative type, do not have experience with mental illnesses, hence their different, "incorrect" interpretation. It’s just that we may have our own, different experiences even there, and it makes us see certain things differently.


*nods* I have to agree with this. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I've met people with untreated clinical depression, more than once, and for the most part they acted nothing like Aerie. I have also met people who acted like Aerie and who did not have depression as such, not as it is medically defined.

I'm not saying she *can't* have depression - but I'm saying that's not the only possible explanation for her behavior.
Rogues do it from behind.

#36 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:20 PM


Anyway, that's how I think about it when I'm in a more sympathetic mood. When that's the case I don't think there's any discrepancy in Aerie's portrayal at all, just that because not everyone who plays the game has as deep an understand of what it's like to be depressed (and I'm not talking sad for a few says, I'm talking months and months of untreated clinical depression.)



Maybe so, most people indeed have a poor understanding of mental illnesses – but you should not let yourself think that everyone who sees Aerie differently, maybe as more of a passive-aggressive manipulative type, do not have experience with mental illnesses, hence their different, "incorrect" interpretation. It’s just that we may have our own, different experiences even there, and it makes us see certain things differently.


*nods* I have to agree with this. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I've met people with untreated clinical depression, more than once, and for the most part they acted nothing like Aerie. I have also met people who acted like Aerie and who did not have depression as such, not as it is medically defined.

I'm not saying she *can't* have depression - but I'm saying that's not the only possible explanation for her behavior.


I'm not going to get into an Aerie discussion. I just don't want to right now. What I will say is this: From my personal first hand experience dealing with clinical depression I find that similar depression is the most likely explanation for Aerie's behavior.

-Blue

#37 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:43 PM


I know from personal experience how many other factors contribute to this – for example, the situation you describe is an extremely tense, high-stress situation (I think that for example Aerie would handle such situations much worse than Jaheira, so would be more likely to make a mistake you describe) which contributes to the possibility to make an oversight.



As you say, since the situation is tense she has more things to keep track of and so the likelihood of an error goes up, but these things happen more with less skilled physicians. With so much to try and cover at the same time a person with less capacity, in terms of logic and precision and in terms of good-decision making is more likely to make an error.


I am sorry, but I simply don’t think there is any connection between whatever stats are there on her character sheet and her skill as a physician. Especially in a case of being a field doctor, which is really all about the experience and being able to operate in high-stress situations, in which Jaheira and her nerves of steel is extremely durable. It’s tough to compare her against the other healers in terms of skill, but I think because of her experience and her personality traits, she is highly competent and one I would probably trust above the others. Certainly, Viconia may be as or even more competent than Jaheira because she has pretty much the same qualities that make Jaheira an excellent healer, but… Viconia is just a type of person who could be, you know, a touch too late in healing a grievously wounded person… especially if she really dislikes that person. :oops: I see Jaheira as more professional in that, as in not letting her personal opinion influence on who gets healed first – something I wouldn’t quite trust Vic with.


I wouldn't trust Viconia near me with a knife if my life depended on it unless her own safety somehow depended on my survival, but that has nothing to do with her skill. Consciously choosing to let someone die and letting someone die because one has underestimate the degree of their injury are two completely different things. One is a decision. One is a mistake.

That’s just my opinion, certainly I am not going to bring up some ‘evidence’ to back that up – where there probably is none, actually. It’s just how I see the characters.


And I agree with you there. What I'm saying is nerves of steel, experience or no Jaheira could still mess up.

Also, I think that the ‘crime’ of never making a bad decision that you ‘accuse’ Jaheira of, very much applies to many other characters – certainly, Keldorn is one very good example, as he is indeed mostly portrayed as the proverbial fountain of wisdom. Also, Viconia. I can’t remember any story where Viconia would have made a bad mistake or just had been plainly verbally bested. To me, Viconia and Keldorn stand out in particular when it comes to never erring.


First of all, I take a little exception to the implication that I'm accusing Jaheira and her writers with some kind of crime. I'm not. I'm just bringing up a point for discussion.

Second of all, I agree with you. There is a definite tendancy to write characters that don't screw up. In Keldorn's case I think it has to do with the fact that in-game he screwed up so spectacularly. I personally don't write Keldorn very much, or Viconia; but Keldorn's family problems are just the sort of thing I mean.

I'm only using Jaheira because she's the example that came immediately to mind because of what I was reading at the time I thought of it.

I've never considered Boo more than of animal intelligence but rather that Minsc ascribes to him the intellect and wisdom that he doesn't have. Whatever Boo says are really things that Minsc himself has thought of in a moment of unsual insight that harkens back to before he injured his brain. Boo is just how he contextualizes these things. He can't understand how he can understand so he decides Boo has told him what's going on.


I think that jury is still out on just what Boo is. Your opinion is one of many, and just as valid as the rest of them.


I think this is side-stepping the issue, but whatever.

Anyway, that's how I think about it when I'm in a more sympathetic mood. When that's the case I don't think there's any discrepancy in Aerie's portrayal at all, just that because not everyone who plays the game has as deep an understand of what it's like to be depressed (and I'm not talking sad for a few says, I'm talking months and months of untreated clinical depression.)


Maybe so, most people indeed have a poor understanding of mental illnesses – but you should not let yourself think that everyone who sees Aerie differently, maybe as more of a passive-aggressive manipulative type, do not have experience with mental illnesses, hence their different, "incorrect" interpretation. It’s just that we may have our own, different experiences even there, and it makes us see certain things differently.


I'm not talking about just any mental illness. I'm talking about depression. And I'm not saying that those who see something else are incorrect, just that I think they may be missing something by not taking into account what really bad clinical depression it like.

-Blue

#38 Laufey

Posted 31 December 2004 - 09:22 PM


*nods* I have to agree with this. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I've met people with untreated clinical depression, more than once, and for the most part they acted nothing like Aerie. I have also met people who acted like Aerie and who did not have depression as such, not as it is medically defined.


I'm not saying she *can't* have depression - but I'm saying that's not the only possible explanation for her behavior.


I'm not going to get into an Aerie discussion. I just don't want to right now. What I will say is this: From my personal first hand experience dealing with clinical depression I find that similar depression is the most likely explanation for Aerie's behavior.


-Blue


*nods* Fair enough. I don't really want to get into an Aerie discussion either, that's not why I mentioned it. What I meant to say was only to repeat what I said at first - that our personal experiences colour our perceptions of all the characters, and that all interpretations are equally subjective.
Rogues do it from behind.

#39 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 01 January 2005 - 05:24 PM

Well, the analogy simply doesn't work for me - because it's not as if I *can* 'break' the original story. If I write fanfic, the worst that can happen is that I write *bad* fanfic. The only person to suffer from that will be me. The original story will still be there, intact, to be enjoyed by anybody who so wishes.


(Nod) I'm not sure I agree with that, though. (You know I was gonna say that, didn't you? :P ) It's just that the way I see it, you 'can' break the original story to an extent. Someone writes something. The story and its characters develop a reputation of sorts. You write fanfic, you try and associate yourself with that reputation, try to 'trade on it' as it were. And so, if your effort bombs, yes, it reflects badly on you, but I think some of the backlash (maybe not a lot, but some) would also fall on the original.

(Shrug)

Anyway, I guess that's one of the major sticking points here, and it's because we don't agree on this one that we don't agree on some of the others. Fair enough. No problem, there.

Well, if I may use aligment terms just this once - maybe it's because you're more of a Lawful person than I am.


(Snicker) You might be right about that. What can I say, I was raised in a very... structured environment... I'm Jesuit-educated, for crying out loud. :roll:

That's all right, doesn't mean you're a *bad* person.


NYAH! :oops:

:lol:

Hmm...I guess that means you must be bothered by a *lot* of things as you write. There are tons of things we don't know about what the characters 'should' be like. Let me take Edwin for example. I've made up Edwin's entire background in my writing, because the game gives us zero information on it. Absolutely nothing, he never discusses it. And to me that's a blessing, because it means I can write whatever I want. But where a character comes from, what his background is, is a very important part of who the *character* is, because the past influences the present, and often explains why the character reacts a certain way in a certain situation.

Do you need to know Jan's entire family tree in order to create a Jansen tale of your own? I wouldn't think so, I think that could drive anybody insane.

To take another, *really* infected debate issue - did Irenicus rape Imoen? The game designers never said 'yes' or 'no' on the subject, and they never will. You have to decide that for yourself.

As for what the characters 'should' be like when it comes to psychology, that's something you can *never* know for sure, unless you ask their creator exactly how the character would react and behave in every given situation that you create for them.

And that, I think, would be extremely boring, since part of what I enjoy about writing fanfic is figuring those things out for myself.


1. Well... yes... I do get bothered by a lot of things... we... probably shouldn't discuss it... (Looks around furtively)

Ahem.

:twisted:

2. I suppose it is a pretty unrealistic and impractical policy to be able to "know" how a certain individual (whether real or fictional) would react in every single situation that they could ever be faced with. I'll agree that it really isn't fair for anyone to expect that sort of thing. Still, I suppose that I'd still have to say that, to a degree, because someone "created" a character, that they have more insight into that character than anyone else would. My point is just that if I write a version of a character that departs hugely from the original, it seems (to me), almost as if I'm arguing that I "know" that character better than the person who created him/her... and that seems a little... wrong... to me. That's all.

3. And yes, I do agree that what we do is an exercise, really... we're learning stuff, we're figuring junk out as we go along. It's extremely rare when you know exactly what's going to happen in a story from the get-go, and exactly how you're going to get there. Most of the time, especially with long-term serials, I think, it's a lot of seat-of-your-pants work. And yes, that -is- fun. :twisted:

#40 Laufey

Posted 01 January 2005 - 05:42 PM

Well, if I may use aligment terms just this once - maybe it's because you're more of a Lawful person than I am.


(Snicker) You might be right about that. What can I say, I was raised in a very... structured environment... I'm Jesuit-educated, for crying out loud. :twisted:


That's all right, doesn't mean you're a *bad* person.


NYAH! :oops:


:roll:


*grin* Well, I think that says it all, really. :lol: As you said, we're not likely to agree on any of this, because our outlooks are just too different. But that's all right, I'm perfectly happy to disagree since the discussion has been a nice and civilized one. :oops:

(Now, excuse me while I go off and work some more on my Elminster Humiliation Plan.) :P :twisted: :oops:
Rogues do it from behind.




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