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Omegas XXVIII: Opine


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#1 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 27 December 2004 - 05:21 AM

Roly-Poly Note-heads:

1. No shooting, no explosions, just talk... ack! How boring! :twisted:

2. Unfortunately, despite the dialogue, no resolution of "major" plot arcs just yet. Sorry, gang. I'm being silly and stretching this crap out. :shock:

3. Chapter soundtrack:

Just in case you were wondering what the hell I was listening to. :shock:

4. Fair warning: Words of wisdom... out of Minsc... yeah, I know, I couldn't believe it, either, but the big guy decided to smarten up on me, even if it was only temporary...

5. I'm mostly happy with how the Falynn/Jaheira section at the end turned out, but it could probably use a little more polish. Wasn't sure what more I could really do with it, though.

Base Camp
Primary Landing Zone
1108 Hours, Local Standard

“And that’s the whole, sordid tale…”

Nalia let out a low whistle as she and Imoen emerged from the back of the APC. “Well, I guess I can see why she’s all upset about it.”

“I can see it, too. That’s not the problem. Fixing it is. I don’t know what to do about it, Nalia. I hate seeing her like this. She’s blaming herself for something that wasn’t her fault, but no matter how often I tell her that, she doesn’t believe it.”

“I think it’s more that she doesn’t -want- to believe it, Imoen.”

“You might be right about that. Lynn’s never been too good at passing the buck, especially where I’m concerned… I just… I just wish she’d cut herself a break. I wish she’d realize that she can’t afford to blame herself for everything. There’s plenty of blame in the world as it is without finding more to heap on yourself, you know?”

“It’s a common problem for people like her…”

“ ‘People like her?’ What do you mean?”

Nalia looked a little shamefaced. “Sorry… I didn’t mean for it to come out like that. It’s just… she’s got a lot of responsibilities… some piled on her by other people, some she imposed upon herself… and when you do that, it becomes really hard to let things slide. You believe that so much is relying on you, so much depends on your every decision, and the pressure just mounts. It’s the kind of thing that happens to anyone who’s… important… I guess. My Dad’s not just a politician, he’s an honest one. Trust me; I’ve seen this kinda thing before.”

“Ok, ok, I see what you’re saying, but… I still don’t know what to do about it… I mean, identifying all the root causes of Falynn’s angst is well and good, but I still wanna know how to fix it… and I don’t think I’ll be able to settle for the ‘she has to work this out on her own’ answer.”

That statement was met with a wry smirk. “No, I didn’t think you would.” The navy officer sighed and shrugged. “But I don’t know how to make her realize something she’s had plenty of time to figure out, but still hasn’t, yet. How do you make someone see something that’s been right under their nose the entire time? You can’t just swipe a squeegee across a psychological blind spot, and fix it that way. Anyway, I’m not sure if you should even try and force the issue, either.”

“Why not?”

“Well, if the way she’s acting right now is any indication, she’s not ready to hear what you have to say. It wouldn’t do you much good.”

“Couldn’t make things any worse.”

Nalia winced. “You know, usually, when people say stuff like that-”

“Yeah… yeah, I know… I just… hate feeling so helpless.”

“We all do.”

“I guess.”

A pause.

“You’re not going to listen to my advice, are you?”

Imoen chuckled ruefully. “I don’t know yet. Maybe I should get a second opinion.”

“Fair enough…”

-----

“Hiya, Minsc. Where’s Boo?”

The bald-headed soldier looked up from zeroing the sights on his weapon and smiled warmly at Imoen’s approach. “Boo was attempting to explain quantum mechanics to me, but then she made a loud squeaking noise and shut down.”

Imoen cringed slightly. “Oh.”

“What is wrong?”

“I appreciate the sentiment, but I don’t know if you can help me, Minsc.”

“Minsc is not the sharpest sword in the armory, it is true, but maybe little Imoen should try talking about her feelings, anyway?”

She chuckled wryly. Well, I told Nalia I’d solicit a second opinion. Just didn’t think about getting it from Minsc. “Guess it couldn’t hurt…” she said out loud, “Minsc… do… do you remember how you felt when Dynaheir died?”

He nodded solemnly. “It was a very difficult time. Very difficult.”

“I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have just brought it up like that-”

He shook his head. “No, it is all right. It -was- a difficult time. Dynaheir was a friend, and Minsc was her protector. There was much shame when she died, but I swore to avenge her falling, and avenge I did. Many orcish butts were kicked in the days that followed.” He straightened, and his chin rose proudly.

“See, that’s just it, Minsc. You fought, you kicked some ass, and while it didn’t bring Dynaheir back, while it didn’t make all the pain go away, it helped, some, right?”

“Avenging those who have fallen against Evil is always a good feeling. It helped Minsc deal with the loss, though Boo was a great comfort as well, of course.”

“Heh. Of course. It just… it just feels as if Falynn is trying to ‘avenge’ me, even though I’m still alive. And no matter how many butts she kicks, it never seems to be enough. She never seems to stop hurting.”

“I understand. It is like the rages that consumed the berserkers of my homeland.”

“What berserkers?”

“There are many tales, in Rashemen, of warriors who would put their boots into the faces of any who would threaten their land. They would fight and fight and fight. Their fury knew no limits; skalds everywhere would sing songs of their battles, and when they died, they would be welcomed by all the other fighters who died before them. For many a year, Minsc wished to be one of them.”

“What happened?”

“Dynaheir died. And Minsc raged, just like the berserkers of old. Where e’er Minsc trod, Evil fell. And for some time, it was good. But Minsc grew tired of raging, and so he stopped. But there is Evil everywhere, enough to keep even Minsc and Boo busy throwing fists in faces.”

“I’m not sure I see what you’re getting at…”

“We can never stop fighting, but we can stop raging. Do you see, little Imoen?”

Imoen blinked. “Surprisingly, I think I do… think you could give that little speech you just gave me to Falynn, too?”

“Falynn is wise… almost as wise as Boo sometimes; she will figure it out on her own, even without our help.”

She sighed. “Yeah. People keep telling me that.”

-----

"They say food digests better if you chew it first."

Falynn swallowed her bite of nutritious, but certainly not delicious, ration bar. “Don’t talk, Jaheira, I’ve seen you eat. Does the term ‘Doppler Effect’ ring a bell? So… how’s the casualty situation?”

”A few scrapes, bumps, and bruises amongst the various teams. No fatalities, no one seriously wounded.”

“And four Dominion heavy tanks destroyed or disabled, plus a bunch of enemy infantry dead. Pretty good trade.”

“An excellent one.”

“ ‘Excellent,’ huh? I’ll be sure to mention you said that in my report.”

The half-eleven medic nodded. “So… were you planning on coming to me with this situation between you and Imoen or were you just going to insult my intelligence and pretend there was nothing going on?”

Falynn didn’t respond to that at first; she stalled, and twiddled her thumbs together. “Mind like a steel trap, Jaheira… and I’m tempted to gnaw my own foot off to escape.”

“I would recommend against it. Cloned replacements are not cheap.”

“Look… I’d… rather not talk about it…”

“I didn’t ask you whether you wanted to talk about it.”

That comment gave Falynn pause. She frowned in mild annoyance. “Oh, gee… I’m sorry, I guess I was under the mistaken impression that -I- gave the orders, not the other way around.”

Jaheira shook her head and rolled her eyes. “This has nothing to do with rank, and I think you know that. I was asking you as one friend to another.”

“Is that what we are? Friends?”

“Do you think otherwise?”

Falynn pursed her lips together. She mulled it over for a moment. “No. No, I guess not.”

“So?”

“So, I still don’t want to talk about it. I need…” she shrugged, helplessly. “I think I need to get this stuff kinda straight in my own head before I can tell anyone else about it. Know what I mean?”

“I do, but let me take this opportunity to remind you that your emotional well-being is not all that is at stake here, and anything that affects your thinking, whether you care to admit it or not, affects the rest of us, as well.”

“I’m painfully aware of that. Trust me – the idea that my deteriorating mental health could put all of you at risk doesn’t exactly sit well with me. I’m… working on it.”

“I have no reason to doubt that you are…”

“But you’re not confident in my ability to resolve this on my own?”

“Why do you always interpret everything I say as criticism?” Jaheira asked, sadly. “Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not exist simply to point out each and every one of your shortcomings, nor do I derive any pleasure from such. Believe me when I say that my concern is quite real, and, despite what I said earlier, not merely an effort to ‘save my own skin’ as it were.” She paused. “I wish you would just talk to me, but I suppose I cannot force you.”

“No. You can’t. Look… I promise… as soon as I get even some of this worked out, I’ll talk your ear off. Ok?”

“I’ll hold you to that promise.”

“I’m sure you will.”

#2 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 27 December 2004 - 10:00 AM

Roly-Poly Note-heads:


Eat them up, yum! :D

1. No shooting, no explosions, just talk... ack! How boring! :wink:


Woohoo! Banter!! :D

4. Fair warning: Words of wisdom... out of Minsc... yeah, I know, I couldn't believe it, either, but the big guy decided to smarten up on me, even if it was only temporary...


:shock: Okay… hmm, maybe he took a hit on the head during that battle?

5. I'm mostly happy with how the Falynn/Jaheira section at the end turned out, but it could probably use a little more polish. Wasn't sure what more I could really do with it, though.


You could have Falynn actually talk about the problem with her? Though maybe that would not have worked there, yet…

“You might be right about that. Lynn’s never been too good at passing the buck, especially where I’m concerned… I just… I just wish she’d cut herself a break. I wish she’d realize that she can’t afford to blame herself for everything. There’s plenty of blame in the world as it is without finding more to heap on yourself, you know?”


Wow, that actually sounds as if they would be talking about Jaheira. She and Falynn are more alike than it seems, I guess.

“Well, if the way she’s acting right now is any indication, she’s not ready to hear what you have to say. It wouldn’t do you much good.”


“Couldn’t make things any worse.”


Oh believe me, you can… sure, the wound is there and it festers and yeah, you want to help heal it, but if you’re really not sure as to how, you’ll probably end up making that wound deeper.

I think Falynn would need a help from specialist, really. That’s a serious problem there. I am not sure that Jaheira is qualified to help her, though since I think Lynn’s issues are something that she could empathize with, I get the feeling she could help.

“You’re not going to listen to my advice, are you?”


Imoen chuckled ruefully. “I don’t know yet. Maybe I should get a second opinion.”


:shock: I just realized from whom that second opinion will come…

The bald-headed soldier looked up from zeroing the sights on his weapon and smiled warmly at Imoen’s approach. “Boo was attempting to explain quantum mechanics to me, but then she made a loud squeaking noise and shut down.”


:lol: She should have known better… ;)

“Heh. Of course. It just… it just feels as if Falynn is trying to ‘avenge’ me, even though I’m still alive. And no matter how many butts she kicks, it never seems to be enough. She never seems to stop hurting.”


Hmm… maybe it’s because the reminder of what they did to you is constantly in front of her? When avenging dead people, with time they start slowly drift out from our minds, and we remember them less and less often?

“We can never stop fighting, but we can stop raging. Do you see, little Imoen?”


Imoen blinked. “Surprisingly, I think I do… think you could give that little speech you just gave me to Falynn, too?”


“Falynn is wise… almost as wise as Boo sometimes; she will figure it out on her own, even without our help.”


See, there’s the second opinion you wanted. ;)

The half-eleven medic nodded. “So… were you planning on coming to me with this situation between you and Imoen or were you just going to insult my intelligence and pretend there was nothing going on?”


*chuckle* Sounds like a typical Jaheira way to address a problem. :)

Falynn didn’t respond to that at first; she stalled, and twiddled her thumbs together. “Mind like a steel trap, Jaheira… and I’m tempted to gnaw my own foot off to escape.”


Why bother? She’ll just use the trace of blood to track you down… :twisted:

“I would recommend against it. Cloned replacements are not cheap.”


Hee hee! Poor Falynn is so outmatched in this contest… but I think it’s more because of her not being in the mood… :?

“Look… I’d… rather not talk about it…”


“I didn’t ask you whether you wanted to talk about it.”


:D You know, I can almost see why one would be too intimidated to come and speak to her about their issues… ;)

Jaheira shook her head and rolled her eyes. “This has nothing to do with rank, and I think you know that. I was asking you as one friend to another.”


“Is that what we are? Friends?”


“Do you think otherwise?”


Falynn pursed her lips together. She mulled it over for a moment. “No. No, I guess not.”


I am not sure I can really understand this… almost mistrust. I mean they’ve been together for how many years, certainly more than enough to understand how Jaheira is behind that gruff exterior. I don’t know why it takes her so hard to trust her… it seems as if Lynn has even more trust issues than Jaheira herself has…

“Why do you always interpret everything I say as criticism?” Jaheira asked, sadly. “Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not exist simply to point out each and every one of your shortcomings, nor do I derive any pleasure from such. Believe me when I say that my concern is quite real, and, despite what I said earlier, not merely an effort to ‘save my own skin’ as it were.” She paused. “I wish you would just talk to me, but I suppose I cannot force you.”


I don’t know… but the idea that even after all these years together, Lynn still can’t really understand Jaheira, that’s just depressing. :(

Heh, maybe I just want them to be closer friends because otherwise it feels that Jaheira is painfully lonely. Lynn at least has Imoen… well, not when she’s consciously pushing her away, of course. ;)

#3 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 27 December 2004 - 11:38 PM

Eat them up, yum!


All right, you caught the reference! ;)

Okay… hmm, maybe he took a hit on the head during that battle?


I think it only works like that on TV or in movies. You know, somebody gets knocked on the head, forgets everything, but then, later, another knock on the head brings it all back...

Like I said... only in the movies. :wink:

Wow, that actually sounds as if they would be talking about Jaheira. She and Falynn are more alike than it seems, I guess.


I think there are some pretty strong similarities. It's just that, overall, Falynn is not nearly as serious a person. :D

I just realized from whom that second opinion will come…


Scared me, too.

She should have known better…


For a genius-level computer A.I., she can be kinda slow. :shock:

*chuckle* Sounds like a typical Jaheira way to address a problem.


Subtlety is often lost on her, I'm sorry to say. :shock:

Hee hee! Poor Falynn is so outmatched in this contest… but I think it’s more because of her not being in the mood…


Agreed. Normally, Falynn can hold her own in situations like this one.

You know, I can almost see why one would be too intimidated to come and speak to her about their issues…


Speaking personally, I'd be a little put-off... even if I did know for sure that she was willing to listen, it'd just be... weird.

I am not sure I can really understand this… almost mistrust. I mean they’ve been together for how many years, certainly more than enough to understand how Jaheira is behind that gruff exterior. I don’t know why it takes her so hard to trust her… it seems as if Lynn has even more trust issues than Jaheira herself has…


That gets addressed in a couple of chapters. ;)

Actually, I put that section in mostly because I think you raise a good point, and I wanted to address it in-story. :shock:

Short of it is, though, that it's not mistrust. It's not that at all. It's just some people are genuinely hard to talk to... there are lots of reasons why that can be the case. It doesn't mean you don't like someone, or you don't consider them a friend, it's just, for whatever reason, you don't feel as if you can tell them certain things.

I don't know if you've ever had that kind of experience, but I have. There are some people who I consider extremely close friends, but there are just certain subjects I've never felt comfortable raising with them. I don't think that makes our friendship any less meaningful, it's just, for whatever reason, I don't feel particularly comfortable discussing certain topics with them. I don't think it's all that terribly abnormal.

I don’t know… but the idea that even after all these years together, Lynn still can’t really understand Jaheira, that’s just depressing.


Again, it's kind of a psychological blind spot... like her inability to let things slide when it comes to Imoen's welfare. Part of her certainly realizes that Jaheira is her friend and has been for a while... part of her realizes all of that stuff, but another part of her can't entirely move past that whole gruff exterior. Even if you know someone cares about you, it's still sometimes hard to tell them stuff when it seems as if they're always ready to bite your head of.

Plus, this is really a Falynn/Imoen problem. It's their relationship that's going through a bit of a rough patch, and despite being closer to the two of them than anyone else on the team, Jaheira's still a bit of an outsider in that respect, which makes it somewhat hard to relate. It's nothing personal. Trust me. :shock:

Heh, maybe I just want them to be closer friends because otherwise it feels that Jaheira is painfully lonely.


I understand. I sometimes think that way, too. Then I remember that I've got something planned, and I -stop- thinking that way.

Mwuhahahahaha. ;)

#4 Guest_Userunfriendly_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 12:03 AM

Roly-Poly Note-heads:


eat them up yum!!!

1. No shooting, no explosions, just talk... ack! How boring! ;)


some of the best parts of band of brothers were the veterans just talking to the camera about things...

Just in case you were wondering what the hell I was listening to. :shock:


not authorized to go to the link...

Nalia let out a low whistle as she and Imoen emerged from the back of the APC. “Well, I guess I can see why she’s all upset about it.”


does nalia have a sibling? not sure she really appreciates lynn's taking care of immy, or how she feels responsible for imoen...

Nalia looked a little shamefaced. “Sorry… I didn’t mean for it to come out like that. It’s just… she’s got a lot of responsibilities… some piled on her by other people, some she imposed upon herself… and when you do that, it becomes really hard to let things slide. You believe that so much is relying on you, so much depends on your every decision, and the pressure just mounts. It’s the kind of thing that happens to anyone who’s… important… I guess. My Dad’s not just a politician, he’s an honest one. Trust me; I’ve seen this kinda thing before.”


yeah, i'd guess she would understand...

“Ok, ok, I see what you’re saying, but… I still don’t know what to do about it… I mean, identifying all the root causes of Falynn’s angst is well and good, but I still wanna know how to fix it… and I don’t think I’ll be able to settle for the ‘she has to work this out on her own’ answer.”


immy can't help fixing stuff..she just can't believe that somethings are really best worked out alone, without her meddling...

“Well, if the way she’s acting right now is any indication, she’s not ready to hear what you have to say. It wouldn’t do you much good.”


imoen: but i wanna, wanna, wanna, wanna!!!

“You’re not going to listen to my advice, are you?”


imoen: la, la, la, la, i can't hear you...

The bald-headed soldier looked up from zeroing the sights on his weapon and smiled warmly at Imoen’s approach. “Boo was attempting to explain quantum mechanics to me, but then she made a loud squeaking noise and shut down.”


:shock:

“Falynn is wise… almost as wise as Boo sometimes; she will figure it out on her own, even without our help.”


boo is wise...listen to sifu boo...

Falynn swallowed her bite of nutritious, but certainly not delicious, ration bar. “Don’t talk, Jaheira, I’ve seen you eat. Does the term ‘Doppler Effect’ ring a bell? So… how’s the casualty situation?”


???

“I would recommend against it. Cloned replacements are not cheap.”


bran: yeah, especially in war time... :shock:

That comment gave Falynn pause. She frowned in mild annoyance. “Oh, gee… I’m sorry, I guess I was under the mistaken impression that -I- gave the orders, not the other way around.”


jae: talk to the hand...

“I do, but let me take this opportunity to remind you that your emotional well-being is not all that is at stake here, and anything that affects your thinking, whether you care to admit it or not, affects the rest of us, as well.”


she's good at the guilt tripping thing...and the butt kick...

“Why do you always interpret everything I say as criticism?” Jaheira asked, sadly. “Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not exist simply to point out each and every one of your shortcomings, nor do I derive any pleasure from such. Believe me when I say that my concern is quite real, and, despite what I said earlier, not merely an effort to ‘save my own skin’ as it were.” She paused. “I wish you would just talk to me, but I suppose I cannot force you.”


yes you do... ;)

“No. You can’t. Look… I promise… as soon as I get even some of this worked out, I’ll talk your ear off. Ok?”


“I’ll hold you to that promise.”


“I’m sure you will.”


yay!!! ;) :D :shock:

#5 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 02:16 AM

“We can never stop fighting, but we can stop raging. Do you see, little Imoen?”


*whistles*

That's impressive.

Really impressive.

"They say food digests better if you chew it first."


"They" obviously don't know of the necessity of eating before you get shot at again.

The half-eleven medic nodded. “So… were you planning on coming to me with this situation between you and Imoen or were you just going to insult my intelligence and pretend there was nothing going on?”


Last I check Jaheira's INT was 10.

Not much there to praise, exactly. Not much to insult either, though she's one up on Minsc at least.

I kid, I kid. ;)

Great chapter Alpha,
-Blue

#6 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 02:55 AM

eat them up yum!!!


Yes, yes. I'm not surprised that you caught that one. ;)

some of the best parts of band of brothers were the veterans just talking to the camera about things...


One of these days, I'm gonna have to pull a scene similar to that one where (I think) Skip Muck is telling a newbie about the times all the others guys in the unit have been hit.

"That skinny, little guy... that's Liebgott... he got pinked in the neck... and next to him, that other skinny, little guy, that's Popeye. He got shot in his scrawny ass back in Normandy... and Buck over there, got shot in his rather large ass in Holland... it's kinda an Easy Company tradition, getting shot in the ass."

But yeah, some of the "all talk" scenes were fun. ;)

not authorized to go to the link...


Crap. I suppose you could go navigate to it yourself, but it'd probably be a pain the butt... bah, humbug. Never mind, then.

does nalia have a sibling? not sure she really appreciates lynn's taking care of immy, or how she feels responsible for imoen...


Well, the in-game version didn't... at least none that we knew of. I didn't really think about it, but I guess this version wouldn't, either. I suppose that does hurt her frame of reference.

immy can't help fixing stuff..she just can't believe that somethings are really best worked out alone, without her meddling...


Part of it, too, is that she's just the type to try and get stuff done, wherever and whenever she can. She's never been the type to sit back and let stuff happen. Even if she's not the one calling the shots, she kinda -has- to be on the front lines. Her personality won't tolerate, otherwise. But because of that, yes, it's difficult for her to believe that things exist that she shouldn't try to "fix" herself.

she's good at the guilt tripping thing...and the butt kick...


I think saying that Jaheira was trying to guilt-trip Falynn here is a bit too harsh. I just don't think she's the type to resort to that kind of approach, at least in a situation like this. It might seem that way, but I doubt that's her intention.

yes you do...


Now, now... be nice. ;)

#7 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 02:57 AM

*whistles*

That's impressive.

Really impressive.


That's Minsc, for ya... just when you count him out, he surprises ya. Threw me for a loop, too.

"They" obviously don't know of the necessity of eating before you get shot at again.


;) A very valid point.

Incidentally, it's the same rationale for getting sleep whenever/wherever you can get it.

Last I check Jaheira's INT was 10.

Not much there to praise, exactly. Not much to insult either, though she's one up on Minsc at least.


Yeouch. ;)

I kid, I kid.


Hey, it's not me you gotta watch out for. It's the Latvian Gangster who'll make you pay for that one. ;)

#8 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 03:59 AM

That's Minsc, for ya... just when you count him out, he surprises ya. Threw me for a loop, too.


I think that's why I like Minsc. He's not the brightest, but he doesn't pretend to be the brightest either. He's humble in that respect and calls things as he sees them. Sort of like having the eight year-old advisor to point out the obvious flaws in your master plan.

Incidentally, it's the same rationale for getting sleep whenever/wherever you can get it.


Last I check Jaheira's INT was 10.


Not much there to praise, exactly. Not much to insult either, though she's one up on Minsc at least.


Yeouch. ;)

Hey, it's not me you gotta watch out for. It's the Latvian Gangster who'll make you pay for that one. ;)


Bah, Theo doesn't scare me ;)

Seriously though, Jaheira has above average, but not stellar wisdom, and an average intelligence and an above average charisma. That says to me that she's got a great deal of confidence, but with a limited ability to back that up.

Now, one might argue that her game stats are merely a reflection of the programmers desire to red-mage or not red-mage characters and to fit the requirements of class, but it would have seemed smarter to me to out one of those 17's that found their way into her Dex and Con respectively if. Certainly a 14 Con and/or a 10 Dex would have made her an even more effective fighter/druid.

Were I to rebuild her as the wise, and intelligent advisor she is often portrayed as I would have to arrange her stats like these:

Str: 15; Dex: 10; Con: 14; Int: 15; Wis 17; Cha: 17

Were I not limited by the fact that she must have a 15 charisma to be a druid by the game rules I'd put the 14 there and leave the Con as 17.

If you want my opinion this would have, game-wise, been a better stat arrangement. However, it's apparent to me that Jaheira was not worked over for optimum effectiveness, which leads me to believe that she was meant to be a character that wants to be the advisor-type but will have mixed success at it.

Which isn't to say I dislike, or think little of Jaheira for being more or less normal mentally, just that I find it ironic when she says things in stories like "Don't insult my intelligence."

Sorry for the rant. Just something that's been bugging me.

#9 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 05:00 AM

I think that's why I like Minsc. He's not the brightest, but he doesn't pretend to be the brightest either. He's humble in that respect and calls things as he sees them.


Exactly. There's a lot to be said for the guy who seems to see things without the biases and what-not that other people tend to just naturally develop. There's a weird sense of innocence about the way he perceives the world, and, at times, it's damned helpful.

Bah, Theo doesn't scare me


Sure, you can say that now, all safe and sound in the midwestern continental United States... but wait until you're over in Eastern Europe. ;)

Which isn't to say I dislike, or think little of Jaheira for being more or less normal mentally, just that I find it ironic when she says things in stories like "Don't insult my intelligence."

Sorry for the rant. Just something that's been bugging me.


No, no, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I think the point you raise is one that's commonly used when people who don't like her argue about how she's some know-it-all who really doesn't know a damned thing. You're completely right. Stats-wise, the numbers just don't reflect the interpretation that a lot of us use for the character. Instead, they are more suggestive of what you've said - someone who's pretty secure that she knows what she's talking about, even if that isn't always necessarily the case.

Thing is, I've just never seen her as that kind of character. In my own head, she's just seemed like the type who -does- know what she's talking about. Now, granted, that knowledge isn't just inborn instinct, but rather a reflection of years of hard-won experience. I figure she learned this stuff the hard way and, out of a genuine sense of worry about her compatriots, is trying to pass that knowledge along... in her somewhat hamfisted kinda way. ;)

Also, though, since my version is actually a full-fledged medical doctor, I figured Vixen's INT would be a little higher than the game version's, just to show that she's got a bit more raw intelligence than you might otherwise expect.

#10 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 08:52 AM

Seriously though, Jaheira has above average, but not stellar wisdom, and an average intelligence and an above average charisma. That says to me that she's got a great deal of confidence, but with a limited ability to back that up.


And, uh, do her in-game banters also reflect the same? Err, no, they don’t. She spars like an equal with the other high-Wis characters and more than often verbally bests them. ;)

Now, one might argue that her game stats are merely a reflection of the programmers desire to red-mage or not red-mage characters and to fit the requirements of class, but it would have seemed smarter to me to out one of those 17's that found their way into her Dex and Con respectively if. Certainly a 14 Con and/or a 10 Dex would have made her an even more effective fighter/druid.


Were I to rebuild her as the wise, and intelligent advisor she is often portrayed as I would have to arrange her stats like these:


Str: 15; Dex: 10; Con: 14; Int: 15; Wis 17; Cha: 17


Were I not limited by the fact that she must have a 15 charisma to be a druid by the game rules I'd put the 14 there and leave the Con as 17.


Why do you want to take something away from her physical stats in order to boost the mental ones? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I often use SK to simply adjust her mental stats to simply better match the impression that I get from her dialogues and appearance… so in my games she has Int: 13, Wis: 17. For me that seems closer to the truth, so to speak.

If you want my opinion this would have, game-wise, been a better stat arrangement. However, it's apparent to me that Jaheira was not worked over for optimum effectiveness, which leads me to believe that she was meant to be a character that wants to be the advisor-type but will have mixed success at it.


No, I seriously doubt that. Remember that she’s a recurring NPC from BG1, and her mental stats might have been more fitting for how she was – albeit briefly – portrayed there. Obviously, the game designers felt that like the other recurring characters, Jaheira also needed a stat boost in order to remain effective. Dex was their choice, and well, it made Jaheira into a kick-ass fighter, that’s for sure. I can sort of understand that they ignored boosting her mental stats, because really… Int does nothing for her in terms of efficiency. A few points of Wis do very little even for a priest… a few more level 1 and 2 spells? Do you *really* need them? Doubtful.

No, no, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I think the point you raise is one that's commonly used when people who don't like her argue about how she's some know-it-all who really doesn't know a damned thing. You're completely right. Stats-wise, the numbers just don't reflect the interpretation that a lot of us use for the character. Instead, they are more suggestive of what you've said - someone who's pretty secure that she knows what she's talking about, even if that isn't always necessarily the case.


I think it’s a similar point that for example those who vehemently adore Aerie use. Why it is obvious that she is both extremely wise and intelligent because her stats say so! Let’s just ignore the plainly moronic things that she says in her banters and during her romance… it’s the numbers that don’t lie. ;)

Thing is, I've just never seen her as that kind of character. In my own head, she's just seemed like the type who -does- know what she's talking about. Now, granted, that knowledge isn't just inborn instinct, but rather a reflection of years of hard-won experience. I figure she learned this stuff the hard way and, out of a genuine sense of worry about her compatriots, is trying to pass that knowledge along... in her somewhat hamfisted kinda way. ;)


The fact that you don’t form your opinion of a character by looking the numbers on its character sheet, is also probably why I really like your version of Jaheira. :D

#11 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 06:21 PM

Which isn't to say I dislike, or think little of Jaheira for being more or less normal mentally, just that I find it ironic when she says things in stories like "Don't insult my intelligence."


Sorry for the rant. Just something that's been bugging me.


No, no, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I think the point you raise is one that's commonly used when people who don't like her argue about how she's some know-it-all who really doesn't know a damned thing. You're completely right. Stats-wise, the numbers just don't reflect the interpretation that a lot of us use for the character. Instead, they are more suggestive of what you've said - someone who's pretty secure that she knows what she's talking about, even if that isn't always necessarily the case.


I don't dislike Jaheira at all. Nor do I think she's a know-it-all, really. She's just so sure that she's right all the time when that's not the case.

Thing is, I've just never seen her as that kind of character. In my own head, she's just seemed like the type who -does- know what she's talking about. Now, granted, that knowledge isn't just inborn instinct, but rather a reflection of years of hard-won experience. I figure she learned this stuff the hard way and, out of a genuine sense of worry about her compatriots, is trying to pass that knowledge along... in her somewhat hamfisted kinda way. ;)


Yep. I agree. That said, I wouldn't want to have to argue with her simply because I know people like that. You can't change their minds because they -know- from experience that they're right, but don't always abstract themselves for whatever reason to realize that -their- experience and -your- experience don't match up.

Also, though, since my version is actually a full-fledged medical doctor, I figured Vixen's INT would be a little higher than the game version's, just to show that she's got a bit more raw intelligence than you might otherwise expect.


Which is good. I think that it fits the usual interpreation of her character better.

-Blue

#12 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 06:59 PM

Seriously though, Jaheira has above average, but not stellar wisdom, and an average intelligence and an above average charisma. That says to me that she's got a great deal of confidence, but with a limited ability to back that up.


And, uh, do her in-game banters also reflect the same? Err, no, they don’t. She spars like an equal with the other high-Wis characters and more than often verbally bests them. ;)


Exactly, which is why I think her stats should reflect that. Bump her wis at the expense of her con or dex and you get a character that stat-wise reflects the wisdom in her banters.


Now, one might argue that her game stats are merely a reflection of the programmers desire to red-mage or not red-mage characters and to fit the requirements of class, but it would have seemed smarter to me to out one of those 17's that found their way into her Dex and Con respectively if. Certainly a 14 Con and/or a 10 Dex would have made her an even more effective fighter/druid.

Were I to rebuild her as the wise, and intelligent advisor she is often portrayed as I would have to arrange her stats like these:

Str: 15; Dex: 10; Con: 14; Int: 15; Wis 17; Cha: 17

Were I not limited by the fact that she must have a 15 charisma to be a druid by the game rules I'd put the 14 there and leave the Con as 17.


Why do you want to take something away from her physical stats in order to boost the mental ones? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I often use SK to simply adjust her mental stats to simply better match the impression that I get from her dialogues and appearance… so in my games she has Int: 13, Wis: 17. For me that seems closer to the truth, so to speak.


Well yeah, that's one way to work it. And I agree that fits the banters better. Then again, in her banters I've never seen so much intelligence as her wisdom and experience.


If you want my opinion this would have, game-wise, been a better stat arrangement. However, it's apparent to me that Jaheira was not worked over for optimum effectiveness, which leads me to believe that she was meant to be a character that wants to be the advisor-type but will have mixed success at it.


No, I seriously doubt that. Remember that she’s a recurring NPC from BG1, and her mental stats might have been more fitting for how she was – albeit briefly – portrayed there. Obviously, the game designers felt that like the other recurring characters, Jaheira also needed a stat boost in order to remain effective. Dex was their choice, and well, it made Jaheira into a kick-ass fighter, that’s for sure. I can sort of understand that they ignored boosting her mental stats, because really… Int does nothing for her in terms of efficiency. A few points of Wis do very little even for a priest… a few more level 1 and 2 spells? Do you *really* need them? Doubtful.


A kick-ass fighter at the expense of reflecting mental abilities. Which is why I always pop her into armor and shove her on the front line. A few extra first or second level spells really -don't- affect much, but without a Wis of 17 she can't get 6th or 7th level spells until she gets the epic abilities. Which makes a big difference to me, since those are the ones I usually have her use. She can't cast heal or harm. Which is a big deal since most people have her cast harm and then hit things. Popping up her Wis is what makes her the effective fighter she is.


No, no, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I think the point you raise is one that's commonly used when people who don't like her argue about how she's some know-it-all who really doesn't know a damned thing. You're completely right. Stats-wise, the numbers just don't reflect the interpretation that a lot of us use for the character. Instead, they are more suggestive of what you've said - someone who's pretty secure that she knows what she's talking about, even if that isn't always necessarily the case.


I think it’s a similar point that for example those who vehemently adore Aerie use. Why it is obvious that she is both extremely wise and intelligent because her stats say so! Let’s just ignore the plainly moronic things that she says in her banters and during her romance… it’s the numbers that don’t lie. ;)


Well, I think Aerie's stats -were- red-maged. Her wisdom and intelligence should be knocked down to 10 at the beginning of the game and then raised up after some point of revelation like Anomen's was. She does say stupid things because her experience has been so limited, but it's curable and I think not so much a reflection of actual capacity as much as upbrining. I'm certainly not saying I'd trust her over Jaheira in terms of good advice, I'm just saying that I see Jaheira as being just as capable of making errors in judgement. I see them all as capable of making errors in judgement.


Thing is, I've just never seen her as that kind of character. In my own head, she's just seemed like the type who -does- know what she's talking about. Now, granted, that knowledge isn't just inborn instinct, but rather a reflection of years of hard-won experience. I figure she learned this stuff the hard way and, out of a genuine sense of worry about her compatriots, is trying to pass that knowledge along... in her somewhat hamfisted kinda way. ;)


The fact that you don’t form your opinion of a character by looking the numbers on its character sheet, is also probably why I really like your version of Jaheira. :D


Well, I don't either, I use them as one of many guide posts. I think the stats on some characters are a better reprentation that others. Aerie's stats are hardly representative of her at the beginning of the game, but they do at the end of Throne of Bhaal, as far as I can tell (and I've recently played through all three romances.) I'm not saying that because Jaheira's int is 10 she's a dummy and that's all there is to it, but that it makes me look at some of her banters again and wonder if she actually -does- have the right interpretation of things. It's just a different angle, and one I like to consider. Just like people get tired of interpretations of Aerie as sweet and innocent, I'm sometimes frustrated with seeing Jaheira as the font of all wisdom.

Minsc's little wise words in Alpha's story reminded me that Jaheira's not cornered the market on advice, and then Jaheira's own comment about not insulting her intelligence made me think about this stuff. I'm just sort of toying with the idea of her as a sometimes flawed advisor instead of eternally correct, which from her banters, as you point out, she appears to be.

-Blue

#13 Laufey

Posted 28 December 2004 - 07:45 PM

Well, I'm sure the Great Balance is grateful for me balancing out any interpretations of Aerie as sweet and innocent. ;) Interesting discussion, I must say!

About Jaheira...I think she is wise, and more intelligent than her stats would suggest. I don't think she's infallible though, because I think her stubborness and strong convictions sometimes prevent her from rethinking and re-evaluating people and ideas. Not always, as we see during the Harper quests, just sometimes.
Rogues do it from behind.

#14 Laufey

Posted 28 December 2004 - 07:57 PM

Roly-Poly Note-heads:


1. No shooting, no explosions, just talk... ack! How boring! ;)


Aw, how will we survive? ;)


4. Fair warning: Words of wisdom... out of Minsc... yeah, I know, I couldn't believe it, either, but the big guy decided to smarten up on me, even if it was only temporary...


I actually think Minsc is *far* wiser than his stats suggest. Not intelligent, but wise in certain ways. Occasionally he'll come out with these little gold nuggets of wisdom that are just perfect.


“I can see it, too. That’s not the problem. Fixing it is. I don’t know what to do about it, Nalia. I hate seeing her like this. She’s blaming herself for something that wasn’t her fault, but no matter how often I tell her that, she doesn’t believe it.”


Oh, I know how *that* is. :shock:


Nalia looked a little shamefaced. “Sorry… I didn’t mean for it to come out like that. It’s just… she’s got a lot of responsibilities… some piled on her by other people, some she imposed upon herself… and when you do that, it becomes really hard to let things slide. You believe that so much is relying on you, so much depends on your every decision, and the pressure just mounts. It’s the kind of thing that happens to anyone who’s… important… I guess. My Dad’s not just a politician, he’s an honest one. Trust me; I’ve seen this kinda thing before.”


*nods* Yes, exactly. When you're used to being responsible, and fixing things, you think you somehow need to fix *everything*, and feel guilty if you can't.


The bald-headed soldier looked up from zeroing the sights on his weapon and smiled warmly at Imoen’s approach. “Boo was attempting to explain quantum mechanics to me, but then she made a loud squeaking noise and shut down.”


;)


“Dynaheir died. And Minsc raged, just like the berserkers of old. Where e’er Minsc trod, Evil fell. And for some time, it was good. But Minsc grew tired of raging, and so he stopped. But there is Evil everywhere, enough to keep even Minsc and Boo busy throwing fists in faces.”


“I’m not sure I see what you’re getting at…”


“We can never stop fighting, but we can stop raging. Do you see, little Imoen?”


There, that's *exactly* what I meant. :D Little gold nuggets.


Falynn didn’t respond to that at first; she stalled, and twiddled her thumbs together. “Mind like a steel trap, Jaheira… and I’m tempted to gnaw my own foot off to escape.”


Liked that phrase a great deal. Know the feeling too.


“But you’re not confident in my ability to resolve this on my own?”


“Why do you always interpret everything I say as criticism?” Jaheira asked, sadly. “Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not exist simply to point out each and every one of your shortcomings, nor do I derive any pleasure from such. Believe me when I say that my concern is quite real, and, despite what I said earlier, not merely an effort to ‘save my own skin’ as it were.” She paused. “I wish you would just talk to me, but I suppose I cannot force you.”


“No. You can’t. Look… I promise… as soon as I get even some of this worked out, I’ll talk your ear off. Ok?”


Aww...I really hope Lynn works this out soon. :shock:
Rogues do it from behind.

#15 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 08:27 PM


Why do you want to take something away from her physical stats in order to boost the mental ones? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I often use SK to simply adjust her mental stats to simply better match the impression that I get from her dialogues and appearance… so in my games she has Int: 13, Wis: 17. For me that seems closer to the truth, so to speak.


Well yeah, that's one way to work it. And I agree that fits the banters better. Then again, in her banters I've never seen so much intelligence as her wisdom and experience.


Well, I think that’s something very hard to judge and impossible to measure. You could ask the same about most NPC’s really… do Viconia’s banters really show her with such high Int and Wis and is it merited that she uses that mostly for insult slinging and mind games? What really reflects Korgan’s Int-12?

I am not really compelled to browse through Jaheira’s banters to dig up those where her intelligence becomes apparent, but I remember quite a few of them to suggest that it has to be pretty high. First of all, I think she has a comparatively complicated vocabulary, which I do take as a sign of high intelligence – sometimes she uses words that make me, a non-native English speaker grab for a dictionary. Her ToB banter with Volo comes to mind, and also a few in her romance – I think in one of those she spoke in epiphanies, which I am compelled to think requires a bit of an Int.

So, yeah… my opinion is that her intelligence also is somewhat higher than suggested. ;)


No, I seriously doubt that. Remember that she’s a recurring NPC from BG1, and her mental stats might have been more fitting for how she was – albeit briefly – portrayed there. Obviously, the game designers felt that like the other recurring characters, Jaheira also needed a stat boost in order to remain effective. Dex was their choice, and well, it made Jaheira into a kick-ass fighter, that’s for sure. I can sort of understand that they ignored boosting her mental stats, because really… Int does nothing for her in terms of efficiency. A few points of Wis do very little even for a priest… a few more level 1 and 2 spells? Do you *really* need them? Doubtful.


A kick-ass fighter at the expense of reflecting mental abilities. Which is why I always pop her into armor and shove her on the front line. A few extra first or second level spells really -don't- affect much, but without a Wis of 17 she can't get 6th or 7th level spells until she gets the epic abilities. Which makes a big difference to me, since those are the ones I usually have her use. She can't cast heal or harm. Which is a big deal since most people have her cast harm and then hit things. Popping up her Wis is what makes her the effective fighter she is.


That rule has never been implemented in the game. :?: My Jaheira gets her 6th level spell slot due to the quick druid level progression even before a single-class cleric like Viconia does – at least it is so in my games. And yes, I hadn’t boosted her Wis to 17 then. ;)

Just like rule that should prevent Aerie from casting level 9 mage spells was never implemented. ;)


The fact that you don’t form your opinion of a character by looking the numbers on its character sheet, is also probably why I really like your version of Jaheira. ;)


Well, I don't either, I use them as one of many guide posts. I think the stats on some characters are a better reprentation that others. Aerie's stats are hardly representative of her at the beginning of the game, but they do at the end of Throne of Bhaal, as far as I can tell (and I've recently played through all three romances.)


Umm, isn’t that a bit too big a compliment to make to someone who thinks that the final of ToB is the best possible time to start a family, suggests to hide her pregnancy by wearing looser robes and then assures the caring father that she’s going to be okay, wading into the final battle with Melissan with a new born baby strapped on her back? ;)

Minsc's little wise words in Alpha's story reminded me that Jaheira's not cornered the market on advice, and then Jaheira's own comment about not insulting her intelligence made me think about this stuff. I'm just sort of toying with the idea of her as a sometimes flawed advisor instead of eternally correct, which from her banters, as you point out, she appears to be.


Well, I think that Jaheira is a very wise and intelligent woman, but I also see her as being able of making a serious error of judgment – those things aren’t mutually exclusive after all. Certainly, she can act very stupidly – especially when her own feelings are involved and they start to overrule her rational way of thinking. You’ve played through her romance so you probably know that she can be rather unreasonable at times – but for a very good reason of course.

And she has a blind spot for many things, after all – such as thinking too little about her own needs and neglecting herself. It’s not a wise thing to do, after all. But that doesn’t detract from the overall impression of her as being both wise and intelligent – people like that also are not immune of making silly mistakes.

#16 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 08:56 PM


Well yeah, that's one way to work it. And I agree that fits the banters better. Then again, in her banters I've never seen so much intelligence as her wisdom and experience.


I am not really compelled to browse through Jaheira’s banters to dig up those where her intelligence becomes apparent, but I remember quite a few of them to suggest that it has to be pretty high. First of all, I think she has a comparatively complicated vocabulary, which I do take as a sign of high intelligence – sometimes she uses words that make me, a non-native English speaker grab for a dictionary. Her ToB banter with Volo comes to mind, and also a few in her romance – I think in one of those she spoke in epiphanies, which I am compelled to think requires a bit of an Int.


Minsc also uses fairly complicated vocabulary. Think about it. He uses some biiiig words in his dialogues. He even uses them with fair accuracy. It's his other speech habits -his use of the third person- and his (apparent) delusions regard Boo that make his intellect and wisdom questionable.

I'm theorizing that her intelligence is average, not that she's dumb. Average intelligence doesn't preclude the use of complex vocabulary, especially given that Jaheira's had as much time to go around and learn as she has, but that she's not as quick to grasp it as someone who has an above average intellect. She's as smart as an average person, but her significantly above average wisdom makes up for it.

So, yeah… my opinion is that her intelligence also is somewhat higher than suggested. ;)


Well, there we may disagree. I'm not really sure. Like I said this is just an idea I'm tossing around. I like the concept of Jaheira as something other than brilliant. She's an astounding fighter, why does she always have to be an astounding wit too?



No, I seriously doubt that. Remember that she’s a recurring NPC from BG1, and her mental stats might have been more fitting for how she was – albeit briefly – portrayed there. Obviously, the game designers felt that like the other recurring characters, Jaheira also needed a stat boost in order to remain effective. Dex was their choice, and well, it made Jaheira into a kick-ass fighter, that’s for sure. I can sort of understand that they ignored boosting her mental stats, because really… Int does nothing for her in terms of efficiency. A few points of Wis do very little even for a priest… a few more level 1 and 2 spells? Do you *really* need them? Doubtful.



A kick-ass fighter at the expense of reflecting mental abilities. Which is why I always pop her into armor and shove her on the front line. A few extra first or second level spells really -don't- affect much, but without a Wis of 17 she can't get 6th or 7th level spells until she gets the epic abilities. Which makes a big difference to me, since those are the ones I usually have her use. She can't cast heal or harm. Which is a big deal since most people have her cast harm and then hit things. Popping up her Wis is what makes her the effective fighter she is.


That rule has never been implemented in the game. :?: My Jaheira gets her 6th level spell slot due to the quick druid level progression even before a single-class cleric like Viconia does – at least it is so in my games. And yes, I hadn’t boosted her Wis to 17 then. ;)


Just like rule that should prevent Aerie from casting level 9 mage spells was never implemented. ;)


Gack. Well that's what I get for boosting everyone's stats as soon as I get them in-game. I can see why they would ignore that rule though if they intended characters like Aerie and Jaheira to be crucial team members.


Well, I don't either, I use them as one of many guide posts. I think the stats on some characters are a better reprentation that others. Aerie's stats are hardly representative of her at the beginning of the game, but they do at the end of Throne of Bhaal, as far as I can tell (and I've recently played through all three romances.)


Umm, isn’t that a bit too big a compliment to make to someone who thinks that the final of ToB is the best possible time to start a family, suggests to hide her pregnancy by wearing looser robes and then assures the caring father that she’s going to be okay, wading into the final battle with Melissan with a new born baby strapped on her back? ;)


That, in my opinion, is lack of wisdom on the designers' part, or perhaps I should say their desire to keep the game going smoothly. I actually never had the papoose dialogues come up playing through the Aerie romance, so I'm not as clear on what's going on there.


Minsc's little wise words in Alpha's story reminded me that Jaheira's not cornered the market on advice, and then Jaheira's own comment about not insulting her intelligence made me think about this stuff. I'm just sort of toying with the idea of her as a sometimes flawed advisor instead of eternally correct, which from her banters, as you point out, she appears to be.


Well, I think that Jaheira is a very wise and intelligent woman, but I also see her as being able of making a serious error of judgment – those things aren’t mutually exclusive after all. Certainly, she can act very stupidly – especially when her own feelings are involved and they start to overrule her rational way of thinking. You’ve played through her romance so you probably know that she can be rather unreasonable at times – but for a very good reason of course.


Exactly.

And she has a blind spot for many things, after all – such as thinking too little about her own needs and neglecting herself. It’s not a wise thing to do, after all. But that doesn’t detract from the overall impression of her as being both wise and intelligent – people like that also are not immune of making silly mistakes.


Which is sort of my problem here. I've noticed sometimes that people write her as "Thinking too little about her own needs" strikes me as almost a cliche, almost like "caring too much". I'd like to see is some other consequences of her occaisonal slip-ups is what it really comes down to.

It's essentially the same problem I have with more of the characters in BG, especially the female ones, who seem to me to be almost parodies. Aerie's supposed to be the wise but innocent one, but as people point out that doesn't always jibe with how the game portrays her. Jaheira's supposed to be experienced, sturdy one, but I can't take her seriously in that position when she's just as dependent on Charname as Aerie (remember her non-romance ending? She just gets trudges on and eventually dies depressed, but in her romance ending she actually shows the strength she's supposed to have, indicating to me a sort of dependence) Viconia is the slutty one, and her redemption always struck me as the 'My Fair Lady' change-the-woman trope. What the game does, and what I've seen a tendancy to do in some fanfiction, is to rely on or satirize these gross personality traits.

I guess I'd sort of like a story where Jaheira screws up significantly or is unwise, or not so smart, to show up just as much as stories where Aerie's a b*tch and Viconia does something nice. It's just as likely to happen, and just as worthy of attention as, for example, showing Minsc's moments of brilliance.

-Blue

#17 Guest_Theodur_*

Posted 28 December 2004 - 11:47 PM

Minsc also uses fairly complicated vocabulary. Think about it. He uses some biiiig words in his dialogues.


Ahem… he speaks in ALL CAPS. I think that says it all, really. ;)


Just like rule that should prevent Aerie from casting level 9 mage spells was never implemented. :?:


Gack. Well that's what I get for boosting everyone's stats as soon as I get them in-game. I can see why they would ignore that rule though if they intended characters like Aerie and Jaheira to be crucial team members.


Boosting Jaheira’s Wisdom to where it should be by all rights would have made more sense to me – certainly more than dropping this rule. It makes Wis a dump stat even for a priest. ;)


Umm, isn’t that a bit too big a compliment to make to someone who thinks that the final of ToB is the best possible time to start a family, suggests to hide her pregnancy by wearing looser robes and then assures the caring father that she’s going to be okay, wading into the final battle with Melissan with a new born baby strapped on her back? ;)


That, in my opinion, is lack of wisdom on the designers' part


You *do* know who wrote Aerie’s content for the game, yes? ;)

Jaheira's supposed to be experienced, sturdy one, but I can't take her seriously in that position when she's just as dependent on Charname as Aerie (remember her non-romance ending? She just gets trudges on and eventually dies depressed, but in her romance ending she actually shows the strength she's supposed to have, indicating to me a sort of dependence)


Well, I have some trouble accepting Jaheira’s epilogues as being in-character, and I’m not the only one who feels that way. I think that the idea of the PC as being the only one who can make Jaheira move on in life after Khalid is downright ridiculous – to me it seems contradictory to how her character has been presented up to that point.

The non-romanced epilogue for me works only if the PC leaves her for godhood – then it does make sense.

I guess I'd sort of like a story where Jaheira screws up significantly or is unwise, or not so smart, to show up just as much as stories where Aerie's a b*tch and Viconia does something nice. It's just as likely to happen, and just as worthy of attention as, for example, showing Minsc's moments of brilliance.


Well, umm, I don’t know, I think that in most stories she is already being portrayed that way. Certainly, if she would be portrayed as an impeccable fighter and a fountain of never-erring wisdom who never does anything wrong, aka, Mary Sue – then I would hate her guts. Me, I especially love the portrayals where she is more flawed, it makes her even more human – and certainly my version of her is very much flawed.

And here in Alpha’s tale, she wasn’t exactly able to help Lynn with her problem, was she? So she *doesn't* always say the right thing, after all.

Yes, I’m afraid I don’t really see your point. She can be both a competent fighter and a wise person and insightful advisor, but she can also be flawed and make mistakes at the same time. You don’t really need to consciously dumb her down in order to make her more interesting, I think.

#18 Guest_The Blue Sorceress_*

Posted 29 December 2004 - 01:28 AM

Minsc also uses fairly complicated vocabulary. Think about it. He uses some biiiig words in his dialogues.


Ahem… he speaks in ALL CAPS. I think that says it all, really. ;)


That he's loud has nothing to do with his intellect. My point was that Minsc too uses complex vocabulary so it's not fair to say that complex vocabulary is a way to judge intellect unless you apply it equally.



Just like rule that should prevent Aerie from casting level 9 mage spells was never implemented. :?:



Gack. Well that's what I get for boosting everyone's stats as soon as I get them in-game. I can see why they would ignore that rule though if they intended characters like Aerie and Jaheira to be crucial team members.


Boosting Jaheira’s Wisdom to where it should be by all rights would have made more sense to me – certainly more than dropping this rule. It makes Wis a dump stat even for a priest. ;)


Waaaaaait... Is what you're saying that the rule that says unless a priest has a wisdom of a certain number they can't cast 6th and 7th level spells is nonsensible? It makes much more sense in terms of fairness and making certain Wisdom isn't a dump stat.



Umm, isn’t that a bit too big a compliment to make to someone who thinks that the final of ToB is the best possible time to start a family, suggests to hide her pregnancy by wearing looser robes and then assures the caring father that she’s going to be okay, wading into the final battle with Melissan with a new born baby strapped on her back? ;)



That, in my opinion, is lack of wisdom on the designers' part


You *do* know who wrote Aerie’s content for the game, yes? ;)


I'm not going to hero worship someone if there's a chance they did a shoddy job making all aspects of a characters representation make sense. Someone must have screwed up with Aerie otherwise she wouldn't be so inconsistant. Her character sheet says LG, I see her, especially when in conflict with Jaheira, as LN with a delusion that she is good, like un-reformed Anomen. Her sheet says Int/Wis 16, she doesn't show that sort of mental capacity in game dialogue. So either someone screwed up taking down statistics or someone screwed up writing down dialogue. In my stories I try to mediate these inconsistancies, but my point is they shouldn't be there in the first place.


Jaheira's supposed to be experienced, sturdy one, but I can't take her seriously in that position when she's just as dependent on Charname as Aerie (remember her non-romance ending? She just gets trudges on and eventually dies depressed, but in her romance ending she actually shows the strength she's supposed to have, indicating to me a sort of dependence)


Well, I have some trouble accepting Jaheira’s epilogues as being in-character, and I’m not the only one who feels that way. I think that the idea of the PC as being the only one who can make Jaheira move on in life after Khalid is downright ridiculous – to me it seems contradictory to how her character has been presented up to that point.

The non-romanced epilogue for me works only if the PC leaves her for godhood – then it does make sense.


Which is what it may have been intended for. Emphasis on may. In that case they should have had for all four romances a third possible ending. It's as much a part of her character as portrayed through the in-game text as Aerie's temper-tantrums or Anomen's intolerance. If you're going to disregard Jaheira's ending as out-of-character you'd have to consider whether or not all other unusual, but otherwise in-character actions by other NPC's reall are out-of-character as well.


I guess I'd sort of like a story where Jaheira screws up significantly or is unwise, or not so smart, to show up just as much as stories where Aerie's a b*tch and Viconia does something nice. It's just as likely to happen, and just as worthy of attention as, for example, showing Minsc's moments of brilliance.


Well, umm, I don’t know, I think that in most stories she is already being portrayed that way. Certainly, if she would be portrayed as an impeccable fighter and a fountain of never-erring wisdom who never does anything wrong, aka, Mary Sue – then I would hate her guts. Me, I especially love the portrayals where she is more flawed, it makes her even more human – and certainly my version of her is very much flawed.


I've not read your story very much, I'm afraid. I don't have quite enough time to catch up at the moment, but what I'm saying is that the number of stories where the PC immediately turns to Jaheira for advice (or gets it regardless) and is significantly positively influenced by what she says is high. I'm no exception, particularly early on. Likewise there are a huge number of stories where Jaheira wins the majority of the verbal sparring match she gets in. Mary Sue? No, that's Charname's job (I'm also a but guilty here, but I work on it), but she's still most often portrayed as the victor and to even things out I'd like to see more stories where her actions don't tend to have a positive ring to them.

And here in Alpha’s tale, she wasn’t exactly able to help Lynn with her problem, was she? So she *doesn't* always say the right thing, after all.


First off, Alpha, I like your Jaheira, so don't take any of this to heart if you read it.

No, Jaheira doesn't help, but she's still -right-, and I can imagine that as things go along it will turn out that what she said will have a positive influence. That's great of Falynn and co. but what I'd really, really like to see is Jaheira be wrong or give bad advice, something that has a negative effect on the other characters. I've been scrambling around for this for a while, not really knowing what I was looking for, but I've at last figured it out. We have Evil Aerie, why can't we have a just as believeable Bad Advice Jaheira? Or at least a "Whoops I Sometimes Mess Up Big Time" Jaheira?

Yes, I’m afraid I don’t really see your point. She can be both a competent fighter and a wise person and insightful advisor, but she can also be flawed and make mistakes at the same time. You don’t really need to consciously dumb her down in order to make her more interesting, I think.


Not all the time, no. That would be just as utterly dull. My point, just to make it explicit, is that I've yet to see one of her mistakes have as much of an impact as one of her successes. Her mistakes are usually small, her flaws nothing terribly bad and in the end the majority of her portrayals are overwhelmingly positive. She is, in fact, one of the few characters that I see consistently depicted so positively. I may just not be reading the right stories, but that's my experience.

-Blue

#19 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 29 December 2004 - 02:50 AM

I actually think Minsc is *far* wiser than his stats suggest. Not intelligent, but wise in certain ways. Occasionally he'll come out with these little gold nuggets of wisdom that are just perfect.


Agreed. The analogy's crept up before, but I think it's an appropriate one. He's like a child, and sometimes, you need a child's "simplistic" view to cut through all the other junk. :?:

Oh, I know how *that* is.


Yeah. It sucks. ;)

*nods* Yes, exactly. When you're used to being responsible, and fixing things, you think you somehow need to fix *everything*, and feel guilty if you can't.


I imagine that would be a problem with a lot of the Spawn, especially the ones who tend to be compassionate people. It's gotta eat at you to be the one in charge, and to be the one who has to make all the decisions that could get your friends killed. It... sucks.

Little gold nuggets.


Plus, the idea of Minsc wearing an old fashioned miner's helmet with the lamp on the front amuses me. ;)

And don't forget the pickaxe. Gotta have a pickaxe.

Liked that phrase a great deal. Know the feeling too.


Oh? You've gotten your foot caught in a bear trap? ;)

Aww...I really hope Lynn works this out soon.


But... but then I'd have no "angst" to play with. ;)

;)

#20 Guest_AlphaMonkey_*

Posted 29 December 2004 - 03:48 AM

(Whistles)

I don't even know where to jump in on this thing, now... I'm almost wondering if I should just let you two fight it out. :) You know, set up a kiddie pool full of Jell-O or something and just see what happens.

We could even warm up the Jaboozie, get everyone comfortable for the big show...

Anyway, some thoughts:

1. It's almost not worth mentioning since most of us tend to do this, anyway, but... I tend to throw numbers out the window when it comes to interpreting a character. Like the deal with Aerie having high Wis and Int. The numbers say she's smart, so she's smart... and damned be everything else.

Like I said, I think we all agree that's so silly, that I shouldn't even have to mention it. But I did. ;)

2. I like Blue's point about how you never really see Jaheira making a royal cluster-fu@$-up. It just seems that such things never happen. It's a valid point. I'd have to agree with that assessment, and I also have to say that I think it'd be interesting to see. She isn't infallible, but I agree that it seems that the mistakes she does make aren't these huge screw-ups that result in some really bad stuff happening. Though as a counter-argument, I can't recall all that many characters, whether game NPCs or original, that have done something unbelievably bad... except maybe Imoen breaking that little cube and releasing the multiverse-eater. :?:

But seriously... how many times have we seen -any- character make a call that atrociously bad? I can't really think of any, so I don't think it's just Jaheira that's "guilty" of that kind of thing.

3.

I'm certainly not saying I'd trust her over Jaheira in terms of good advice, I'm just saying that I see Jaheira as being just as capable of making errors in judgement. I see them all as capable of making errors in judgement.


Interesting point. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it, though. Is a lot of Aerie's "stupidity" simply a result of lack of proper upbringing and general inexperience with the world as a whole? Yes. Yes, it is. Given similar circumstances, do I think Jaheira would make the same exact mistakes? No, I don't think so. Given the lack of experience and what-not, do I see her making irrational, impulsive, and downright boneheaded decisions? Yes, I do. But I still think that she's got a bit more of a head on her shoulders, naturally, than Aerie does. Now, can I back that up? I suppose I can't... it's just a gut feeling, more than anything. I honestly doubt there's "textual" evidence to support what I'm saying. Thankfully, this isn't an academic treatise, and so I think I can get away with saying something that's more "opinion" than "fact." ;)

4.

Minsc's little wise words in Alpha's story reminded me that Jaheira's not cornered the market on advice, and then Jaheira's own comment about not insulting her intelligence made me think about this stuff.


(Nod) For one, though, I think it's rather painfully obvious that there's something wrong with Falynn, and I'm not just saying that because I'm the writer, and you guys are the readers. I think even the other characters on the squad would be able to see something was up, too. Valygar's pretty perceptive, I'm sure he noticed something. Nalia seemed to, as well. Even Minsc did. That being the case, it's not surprising that Jaheira would pick up on something being wrong and would wonder why Falynn refused was consciously refusing to mention it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't this statement in particular that directly raised this "question", but whatever. ;)

5.

About Jaheira...I think she is wise, and more intelligent than her stats would suggest. I don't think she's infallible though, because I think her stubborness and strong convictions sometimes prevent her from rethinking and re-evaluating people and ideas.


Sounds about right to me. She's strongly opinionated, and utterly convinced that she's right a lot of the time. It's hard for her to admit when she makes a mistake (and she does make them on occasion), but I think she will make that kind of admission eventually. But to reiterate the point that's already been made, it doesn't really seem as if she's ever made a really bad call that, say, got someone killed, or whatever. But then again, there aren't that many characters that -have- done something like that, anyway... at least not that I can think of.

I am not really compelled to browse through Jaheira’s banters to dig up those where her intelligence becomes apparent, but I remember quite a few of them to suggest that it has to be pretty high.


Sorry, Theo, but I think I gotta side with Blue on this one. Proficiency with language isn't necessarily a sign of intelligence. Yes, obviously the two are related, but language is, I think, a skill, and it's something that can be learned. Given enough time, I think just about anyone can pick it up. So, while communicating in grunts and such is probably a good sign that you're... not all there upstairs, I don't think that using big words is necessarily a sign that you're a genius. ;)

6.

She's an astounding fighter, why does she always have to be an astounding wit too?


I'm not sure I'd say she has to be an "astounding" wit, but as I said earlier, she just strikes me as the type that people look to for advice. I don't really know why, but that's just the impression I got, and have kinda always had. Maybe I just bought into the way she was pushed on the player, and never really got a chance to form my own real, unbiased opinion on the matter, but I don't think that's it. She really does just hit me as a "smart" person... maybe not "nuclear physics" smart, but "wise", I suppose, would be the proper term. And again, that wisdom, not so much the "spouting philosophy from birth" type of thing, but hard-won, hard-earned experience.

7.

If you're going to disregard Jaheira's ending as out-of-character you'd have to consider whether or not all other unusual, but otherwise in-character actions by other NPC's reall are out-of-character as well.


You're on a roll... :)

But yeah... like it or not, the epilogues we're given are "canonical..." Now yes, the very essence of what we do is "breaking" canon, but even so, since what we do is fanfiction, we're pretty much constrained by what's been written in "official" sources. Now I'm not saying that our characters have to be written exactly the way they were written in the game, but I don't think it's entirely fair for us to just say "Well, I don't agree with that part, so I'm just gonna ignore it."

I don't think I'm making my point very well, but the way I see it, since we're working with established characters, even if we change things, we have to keep a lot of the stuff the same... enough that our version of a character is actually recognizable as that character, and not just another, completely new character with the same name.

Selectively ignoring aspects that we don't like kinda defeats the purpose of writing fanfic, I think. (Shrug)

No, Jaheira doesn't help, but she's still -right-, and I can imagine that as things go along it will turn out that what she said will have a positive influence. That's great of Falynn and co. but what I'd really, really like to see is Jaheira be wrong or give bad advice, something that has a negative effect on the other characters.


No offense taken. No worries, there. But yeah, I see your point, and as I pointed out earlier, I think I'd genuinely be interested in seeing someone attempt that. I'm just not sure I can pull it off myself. I don't think I have the right image of the character in my head in order to try something along those lines. But it certainly is an interesting concept. Definitely. But I also think it won't be easy. I don't know... maybe I'll give it a try as part of a quiz piece or something... never know. No promises. ;)




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